Bert Nommel: Some Interesting Sims

[just a counter]

John, since you are unaware that the SCORE underates the RPC and Halves,I think something is terribly wrong with my version of BJRM.

Here are the sims for H17DAS 4.5/6.

KO-12.60
RPC-11.70
HALVES-12.53.

I used the standard default settings. 1-12(play all). KO preferred is showing it out performs the RPC by 7% and holds about even with Halves. Something has to be wrong. Is there a way I can correct these errors by using the manual sim input and adjust to the correct values or do you have a program code software I can use?

thanks,
JAC

[John Auston]

> John, since you are unaware that the SCORE
> underates the RPC and Halves,I think
> something is terribly wrong with my version
> of BJRM.

I acknowledge no such thing. For the 3 systems you are comparing, each used a differenct set of indices, so they are not apples-to-apples, from the get go.

Also, one system will take turns "beating" the other, depending on the rules, # of decks, penetration, etc.

Halves happens to be not as good against 6 and 8 deck shoes as it is against 1 and 2 deck games.

For example, the RPC sim in OSS will beat KO at 2 deck, etc.

You are trying to use BJRM to compare one system versus another. But as I said, the sims for the various systems were never meant to be compared apples-to-apples. They ARE meant to be compared "within themselves", i.e. KO 2dk H17 versus KO 2 dk S17.

> Here are the sims for H17DAS 4.5/6.

> KO-12.60
> RPC-11.70
> HALVES-12.53.

> I used the standard default settings.
> 1-12(play all). KO preferred is showing it
> out performs the RPC by 7% and holds about
> even with Halves. Something has to be wrong.

No it doesn't. What is "wrong" is your assumption that the sims are apples-to-apples, and that if one system beats another for one set of playing conditions, it will beat it for all sets of playing conditions.

> Is there a way I can correct these errors by
> using the manual sim input and adjust to the
> correct values or do you have a program code
> software I can use?

If you want to do system versus system "research", you need to run your own sims with CVData, or SBA, etc.

- John

[just a counter]

John,I'm now more confused than ever.I'm certainly not making up these scores. I take my game seriously. That's why I invested in BJRM. I dont understand what you're telling me.

> I acknowledge no such thing. For the 3
> systems you are comparing, each used a
> differenct set of indices, so they are not
> apples-to-apples, from the get go.

It's my understanding that BJRM uses the I 18 on ALL count systems. Is this true?

> Also, one system will take turns
> "beating" the other, depending on
> the rules, # of decks, penetration, etc.

Are you saying my BJRM version is correct and KO does out perform the RPC and halves under the conditions of H17DAS 4.5/6?

> Halves happens to be not as good against 6
> and 8 deck shoes as it is against 1 and 2
> deck games.

I do understand this.

> For example, the RPC sim in OSS will beat KO
> at 2 deck, etc.

But wouldn't the RPC beat KO in shoe games also?

> You are trying to use BJRM to compare one
> system versus another. But as I said, the
> sims for the various systems were never
> meant to be compared apples-to-apples. They
> ARE meant to be compared "within
> themselves", i.e. KO 2dk H17 versus KO
> 2 dk S17.

John I purchased BJRM because it was my understanding you can compare count systems and SCORE to each other using the same rules and conditions. I dont understand why BJRM cant compare the SCORE of count sytems under the exact conditions.

> No it doesn't. What is "wrong" is
> your assumption that the sims are
> apples-to-apples, and that if one system
> beats another for one set of playing
> conditions, it will beat it for all sets of
> playing conditions.

Is this the reason BJRM shows KO to outperform RPC and Halves when H17DAS is applied and underperform RPC and Halves when S17DAS is applied. I dont understand how this can be.

> If you want to do system versus system
> "research", you need to run your
> own sims with CVData, or SBA, etc.

This is why I purchased BJRM. For it's simplicity. I was under the impression it compares systems(SCORE) to each other.

I'm an avid card counter and appreciate your sincere advice. I will appreciate if you answer my questions so I can clear my head of confusion..

JAC

[John Auston]

> It's my understanding that BJRM uses the I
> 18 on ALL count systems. Is this true?

No. Every time you load a sim, it states right on the screen what types of indices were used.
For example, the halves sims say that they did not use 10 splitting.

> Are you saying my BJRM version is correct
> and KO does out perform the RPC and halves
> under the conditions of H17DAS 4.5/6?
> I do understand this.

Your BJRM is showing that BASED ON THE INDICES USED BY EACH SYSTEM, when comparing H17DAS 4.5/6,
the results are as you have stated. But this comparison is NOT apples-to-apples. You can be sure, however, that within each system, S17DAS will beat H17DAS, for the same penetration.

> But wouldn't the RPC beat KO in shoe games
> also?

Depends on how the indices used by each system, in the canned sims, and how the strengths of each system, are manifested in the shoe game.

For example, under really poor conditions (bad rules, bad penetration), the differences between one systems performance, and another?s, will narrow.

> John I purchased BJRM because it was my
> understanding you can compare count systems
> and SCORE to each other using the same rules
> and conditions.

How did you come to that understanding?

> I dont understand why BJRM
> cant compare the SCORE of count sytems under
> the exact conditions.

Because the same set of indices were not used for all sims for all systems. The index set is consistent within a given system, but not necessarily from system to system.

> Is this the reason BJRM shows KO to
> outperform RPC and Halves when H17DAS is
> applied and underperform RPC and Halves when
> S17DAS is applied. I dont understand how
> this can be.

Because the KO, Halves, and RPC sims did not all use the same indices, you cannot draw those conclusions. However, even if they did, you would still find the various systems doing better or worse, depending on the game conditions. Part of this is because of how they each value the card tags. For example, it "hurts" Halves to count the "9" as a big card, especially in shoe games. Counting the "9" throws off Insurance.

> This is why I purchased BJRM. For it's
> simplicity. I was under the impression it
> compares systems(SCORE) to each other.

It shows you how a systems SCOREs vary under various rules and penetrations and # of decks.

You need to use SBA or CVData to do the type of system versus system research you are talking about. Or, read some of Don Schlesinger's articles - especially the original SCORE articles.

[John Auston]

> No. Every time you load a sim, it states
> right on the screen what types of indices
> were used.
> For example, the halves sims say that they
> did not use 10 splitting.

I just checked and verified that the RPC sims in OSS DID NOT split 10's, whereas the KO and hi-lo did. The screen text for RPC should say "Sweet 16, F4, and several more indices", rather than the incorrect "I18, F4, and several more indices"

Sorry for the confusion.

This underscores why you cannot compare system vs system in OSS, unless you KNOW that they used the same game conditions.

John

[just a counter]

I cant see how the RPC is using more indices than KO,yet KO is out performing it when using H17DAS,but when I compare the two count systems using S17DAS,BJRM is showing the RPC to outperform KO by a fairly good mean. How can this be?

My first thought was I might have messed up the software while fooling around with the manual input values, but I never transferred any files. Don has sincerely replied that his BJRM is showing the same SCORE as mine,which leads me to believe this is how BJRM is programed.

Sorry if I'm being stupid John, but something is wrong. Is there a solution to fixing this.

JAC

[John Auston]

> Sorry if I'm being stupid John, but
> something is wrong. Is there a solution to
> fixing this.

I have given you the explanation. I don't know what more I can do. I'll try one more time. The following are all relevant facts, which in their totality, explain the results you are seeing:

1. The KO sims split 10's to their hearts content. This gives them a BIG advantage.
2. The RPC sims did not spilt 10's, and the extra indices they used did not entirely make up for the difference.
3. The card tags for KO and RPC look to be very different, but they are not as different as they seem. The only difference is that RPC counts the 2 and the 7 at 1/2 value that KO does.
4. There is something about the different index values used when playing H17 (versus S17) games, that "favors" the relative value that KO gives to 2's and 7's, as opposed to the value that RPC does.
5. When LS is added, RPCs indices are "better" (because of true counting) at getting the edge than KO's LS indices are. Many of KO's LS indices are far from pivot.

All of those things (and probably more), combined, account for the differences you are seeing.

Once more:

Because of the relative card tag values, a system that is "better", overall, than another system, will not be equally so over all games conditions (rules, penetration).

And that, is the answer.

There is NOTHING wrong with the BJRM sims you are questioning, so please stop implying that there is.

- John Auston

[just a counter]

John, excuse my stupidity for believing something was wrong.

I'm quite shocked that one indice and H17 can have such an adverse effect on the RPC and KO. A 20% swing in the difference of expectation is comatose news to me. I usually NEVER split tens,ugh!.

Thank you for your time. I hope you understand my previous ball of confusions and the reasons why.

jac

> I have given you the explanation. I don't
> know what more I can do. I'll try one more
> time. The following are all relevant facts,
> which in their totality, explain the results
> you are seeing:

> 1. The KO sims split 10's to their hearts
> content. This gives them a BIG advantage.
> 2. The RPC sims did not spilt 10's, and the
> extra indices they used did not entirely
> make up for the difference.
> 3. The card tags for KO and RPC look to be
> very different, but they are not as
> different as they seem. The only difference
> is that RPC counts the 2 and the 7 at 1/2
> value that KO does.
> 4. There is something about the different
> index values used when playing H17 (versus
> S17) games, that "favors" the
> relative value that KO gives to 2's and 7's,
> as opposed to the value that RPC does.
> 5. When LS is added, RPCs indices are
> "better" (because of true
> counting) at getting the edge than KO's LS
> indices are. Many of KO's LS indices are far
> from pivot.

> All of those things (and probably more),
> combined, account for the differences you
> are seeing.

> Once more:

> Because of the relative card tag values, a
> system that is "better", overall,
> than another system, will not be equally so
> over all games conditions (rules,
> penetration).

> And that, is the answer.

> There is NOTHING wrong with the BJRM sims
> you are questioning, so please stop implying
> that there is.

> - John Auston

[John Auston]

> Thank you for your time. I hope you
> understand my previous ball of confusions
> and the reasons why.

When all is said and done, RPC is, of course, a more powerful system than KO, apples-to-apples.

If you are interested in system-vs-system comparisons, read the SCORE chapter from Don Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack book. It contrasts several (11) systems, apples-to-apples, over several types of games. I helped Don with that article, and created many custom sims that were input into BJRM, to get the article's charts and results.

- John