Advantage Jack: Kicked out from a Casino

[Advantage Jack]

Hi,

I learned counting a couple of months ago, and I've been playing every weekend ever since (about 30~40 hours per weekend). My counting is not very good, and I prefer playing SD since I don't have to wait too long before the new shuffle (once I lose the count). Last weekend, I went to one casino in Downtown Las Vegas (which I visited and spent several hours three weeks ago) and played on SD tables for about three hours. In almost every table, I lost a hundred dollars or two (betting reds) before I switched tables. But, on one table, the luck finally turned around and I made about three hundred dollars in less than half an hour (playing head-on). When I lost fifty dollars from that point, a couple of gentlemen showed up and I decided it was time to quit. I cached in $350 (including $100 I bought in at the table).

I wanted some more action, so I looked around the tables, and that was when this happened.

A security guard nudged me in my back and said something like "You gotta keep moving". (I don't remember what exactly he said. Actually, I didn't hear the exact phrase.) I thought I was in the hallway blocking, so I moved a bit sideway (toward the third base of the particular table I was watching). But, after a few seconds, he showed up again and did exactly the same thing and said the exactly same thing. And then I realized instantly, aha, this is what they meant by "being barred".... I read several books on counting and I knew this was an issue. But I never thought it was gonna happen to me. For one thing, I only count less than a third of the time (to be honest, my winning is not correlated with whether/how successfully I count, from my several weeks' experience) and my bet variation is very small (typically 1:2 or 1:3). At that particular table ($10 min), I was probably betting $10 to $30, not according to the count, though. I was just using progressive system (increase the bet when I win).

The only thing I can think of is I was winning (too quickly) and I quit when I was ahead. This is very discouraging. I feel like I can get kicked out from a casino anytime, whether I count or not, as long as I win....

This also makes me mad. They didn't pay attention when I lost two hundred dollars on one table in less than 15 mins.... They didn't care when I lost table after table.... I was still down several hundred dollars in that casino and I was so ready to recoup some of that loss. And... I was banned.

Do you have similar experience? What is the best way to keep this from happening again.

Thanks so much,
~Advantage Jack.

[Geoff Hall]

> Hi,

> I learned counting a couple of months ago,
> and I've been playing every weekend ever
> since (about 30~40 hours per weekend). My
> counting is not very good, and I prefer
> playing SD since I don't have to wait too
> long before the new shuffle (once I lose the
> count). Last weekend, I went to one casino
> in Downtown Las Vegas (which I visited and
> spent several hours three weeks ago) and
> played on SD tables for about three hours.
> In almost every table, I lost a hundred
> dollars or two (betting reds) before I
> switched tables. But, on one table, the luck
> finally turned around and I made about three
> hundred dollars in less than half an hour
> (playing head-on). When I lost fifty dollars
> from that point, a couple of gentlemen
> showed up and I decided it was time to quit.
> I cached in $350 (including $100 I bought in
> at the table).

> I wanted some more action, so I looked
> around the tables, and that was when this
> happened.

> A security guard nudged me in my back and
> said something like "You gotta keep
> moving". (I don't remember what exactly
> he said. Actually, I didn't hear the exact
> phrase.) I thought I was in the hallway
> blocking, so I moved a bit sideway (toward
> the third base of the particular table I was
> watching). But, after a few seconds, he
> showed up again and did exactly the same
> thing and said the exactly same thing. And
> then I realized instantly, aha, this is what
> they meant by "being barred".... I
> read several books on counting and I knew
> this was an issue. But I never thought it
> was gonna happen to me. For one thing, I
> only count less than a third of the time (to
> be honest, my winning is not correlated with
> whether/how successfully I count, from my
> several weeks' experience) and my bet
> variation is very small (typically 1:2 or
> 1:3). At that particular table ($10 min), I
> was probably betting $10 to $30, not
> according to the count, though. I was just
> using progressive system (increase the bet
> when I win).

> The only thing I can think of is I was
> winning (too quickly) and I quit when I was
> ahead. This is very discouraging. I feel
> like I can get kicked out from a casino
> anytime, whether I count or not, as long as
> I win....

> This also makes me mad. They didn't pay
> attention when I lost two hundred dollars on
> one table in less than 15 mins.... They
> didn't care when I lost table after
> table.... I was still down several hundred
> dollars in that casino and I was so ready to
> recoup some of that loss. And... I was
> banned.

> Do you have similar experience? What is the
> best way to keep this from happening again.

> Thanks so much,
> ~Advantage Jack.

I am very suprised that you received this treatment bu using just a 1-3 spread with red chips.
Do you mind naming the casino involved as casinos do vary regarding their attitude to suspected card counters.
In Downtown, Vegas, I would be shocked if you told me that it happened at The Golden Nugget or The Horseshoe but, without knowing the casino involved, would hazard a guess that this could happen at The Plaza ?
Maybe you stare at the cards for too long (as you said that you had difficulty in maintaining the count) and this could alert the surveillance. Then when they see you only spreading small amounts they see you as a 'nuisance' rather than a threat to their profits, but some casinos may still ask you to leave.
Also, you could try reducing the amount of time that you spend at any one table, before moving onto another casino, especially in Downtown, Vegas where there is a choice of locations within easy walking distance. This will give less time for the casino to study your play and take action. You could always return several hours later and play under a completely new shift.
As mentioned earlier, it would be useful if you could name the casino involved, for future reference. Stuart Perry (in his book) had a pretty rough time at the Plaza, although he was spreading far more wildly, which is why I mentioned that casino.
Incidentally, the first time I ever went to Vegas, I played at The Pioneer, Downtown, in a double-deck game. I was heads up against the dealer and paranoid about them catching me counting so I was only spreading $5-$15. Everytime the count started to climb the cut card came out and when it was negative I was being dealt quite deep penetration. It took me about 45 minutes (and $60) to realise that the dealer was counting the cards and using 'preferential' dealing (Even though I could count well I was very naive). Fortunately, I moved to the 6 deck game, spread $3-$30, got lucky and won $85, without any problems. That lasted about 30 minutes and I cashed in and never returned there until 5 weeks ago when I needed some mints (it's now a store selling gifts).
The Moral ? - Casinos that clamp down too heavily on winners albeit from some educated players betting small, will scare off the majority of those players who think they can win. Once the word gets around that the casino is a 'sweat' joint then it is obviously avoided by card counters but also by non-card counters.
The result ? - The atmosphere of the place becomes unfriendly, the business drops and so they subsequently end up selling candy instead :-)

Best regards

Geoff

[big nguyen]

...you were being barred.

1) When you are barred it is usually done by a floor person in the pit, or shift manager.

2) They are often accompanied by security, but security is unlikely to do perform this alone.

3) They will usually use phrases such as "you are welcome to play other games in the casino, but no more blackjack" if it is a polite backoff, or in a more strict barring:
"Please leave the casino immediately, and if you return we can have you arrested you for trespassing"

4) It is entirely possible that you happen to run into a security guard who just felt like "throwing his weight around" and intimidated you for kicks.

Don't be discouraged. It is extremely unlikely you will be kicked out for winning such small amounts as $200-$300. It could happen at the Barbary Coast, but that is an exception not the rule.

Return to this casino on your next trip. Sit at a table and flatbet for 15 minutes. I think you will find they pay no attention to you.

A further comment is that you should not play such long sessions in future. You mentioned playing 3 hours. You are giving the eye and pit personnel too long to scope your game to evaluate your skills. You MUST keep winning sessions to an hour or less. You can play somewhat longer when losing, but not three hours. Play shorter sessions, keep moving and vary the shifts you play.

[Just a counter]

many newbies freak out in casinos. They're so shook up about what they hear on the internet, when they go to a casino they care more about being kicked out or backroomed than playing a winning game. They might even think a slight clue or sign of any attempt is a backoff, which therefore many will translate to a barring,which therefore many will translate to being kicked out,which therefore many will translate to being aka 86'(no trespassing) and so forth.

The biggest story on the internet that lingered on and on was the Grosjean and friend saga where he was backroomed and held against will. The funniest thing about this is the misconception of information on the internet which caused too much touting of "If you're counting cards you'll get backroomed and roughed up!" Grossjean and friend were NOT backroomed for counting cards or even playing Blackjack,they were playing some kind of poker game.

Trust me, it is not as bad as the stories you hear all over the internet. If you keep in mind that that some postings are a bit entertaining, you'll be able to ease up at the tables.

Bottom line is...it is unlikely you were even close to being barred.

JAC

[fulltimer]

Kicked out is usually just overly considered and
worried pit critters. Recently I was removed from a joint in where I was actually down cash.
My friend got kicked out of Ceaars and doesn't even know basic strategy.
Another friend out of the fitz, asnother
bad player and not winning.

> I am very suprised that you received this
> treatment bu using just a 1-3 spread with
> red chips.
> Do you mind naming the casino involved as
> casinos do vary regarding their attitude to
> suspected card counters.
> In Downtown, Vegas, I would be shocked if
> you told me that it happened at The Golden
> Nugget or The Horseshoe but, without knowing
> the casino involved, would hazard a guess
> that this could happen at The Plaza ?
> Maybe you stare at the cards for too long
> (as you said that you had difficulty in
> maintaining the count) and this could alert
> the surveillance. Then when they see you
> only spreading small amounts they see you as
> a 'nuisance' rather than a threat to their
> profits, but some casinos may still ask you
> to leave.
> Also, you could try reducing the amount of
> time that you spend at any one table, before
> moving onto another casino, especially in
> Downtown, Vegas where there is a choice of
> locations within easy walking distance. This
> will give less time for the casino to study
> your play and take action. You could always
> return several hours later and play under a
> completely new shift.
> As mentioned earlier, it would be useful if
> you could name the casino involved, for
> future reference. Stuart Perry (in his book)
> had a pretty rough time at the Plaza,
> although he was spreading far more wildly,
> which is why I mentioned that casino.
> Incidentally, the first time I ever went to
> Vegas, I played at The Pioneer, Downtown, in
> a double-deck game. I was heads up against
> the dealer and paranoid about them catching
> me counting so I was only spreading $5-$15.
> Everytime the count started to climb the cut
> card came out and when it was negative I was
> being dealt quite deep penetration. It took
> me about 45 minutes (and $60) to realise
> that the dealer was counting the cards and
> using 'preferential' dealing (Even though I
> could count well I was very naive).
> Fortunately, I moved to the 6 deck game,
> spread $3-$30, got lucky and won $85,
> without any problems. That lasted about 30
> minutes and I cashed in and never returned
> there until 5 weeks ago when I needed some
> mints (it's now a store selling gifts).
> The Moral ? - Casinos that clamp down too
> heavily on winners albeit from some educated
> players betting small, will scare off the
> majority of those players who think they can
> win. Once the word gets around that the
> casino is a 'sweat' joint then it is
> obviously avoided by card counters but also
> by non-card counters.
> The result ? - The atmosphere of the place
> becomes unfriendly, the business drops and
> so they subsequently end up selling candy
> instead :-)

> Best regards

> Geoff

[Advantage Jack]

Thanks everybody for encouraging comments. To answer some of the questions directed to me,
1) It was Binion's HorseShoe, and I was probably playing from around 8PM to just before midnight. (I think it was Friday.)
2) There is absolutely no way I was mistaken. The guard's body language was more than clear even though he just turned out around and moved away without saying anything when I asked him "do you want me to get out of here?" (I was at a loss, and these words just came out of my mouth).
3) I don't know how long they remember certain players, but another thing that caused this reaction from the casino might have been my previous play. Three weeks ago, a very similar thing happened: I was winning on one table very rapidly. I was up at one point about four or five hundred dollars playing reds, and I noticed the pit bosses watching my game (even those from the next pit). (It was around the 12noon and I don't remember any particular pit bosses from that time.) Again, I was too dumb and stayed on the *same* table for about three hours. When I finally stood up, I had $200 including my initial investment $100. I don't know if I was "branded" as card counter at that time.

Thanks,
~Advantage Jack

[Pro Player]

a big betting player.
In this case security is sometimes instructed to not allow spectators hence the "keep moving" and the repeated "keep moving" when you moved closer to the table.

[Advantage Jack]

The table min was $25 and there were about four players playing at the time. The place was very crowded (Friday night), and I can't think of any reason why a security guard picked on me other than the fact that I just cashed in a few hundred dollars. (Not a lot of money, I agree.) I might have been somewhat more noticeable since I played head-on when all other tables were packed. (The dealder was so hot and all other players left when I joined the table.)

In any case, I'm *doubly* surprised. First, I was very surprised that I was considered a "threat" to a casino and asked to leave (non-verbally). Now, I'm also quite surprised that this seems to be a very unusual case (based on the reactions on this board). I guess this is very encouraging since my experience last week appears to be an exception rather than the norm.

Thanks everybody,
~Jack

[Buick Riviera]

Sorry Jack but you weren't "barred".

From piecing together your story it is obvious that you cashed out at the cage in the old part of the HS located across the narrow aisle from the BJ tables.

It was crowded and you lingered in the aisle and didn't keep moving when asked to do so by security (who are always standing by that cage and always asking people to keep moving). Instead, you stepped over to a table across from the cage, still interfering with the foot traffic flow on a crowded Friday night.

Believe me, if you're barred at the HS there will be no question in your mind what happened.

If you need a barring story to impress your friends, play the Barbary Coast, spreading 1-8 on their DD.

Buick

[Advantage Jack]

that I didn't "make a scene" by confronting the security guard and asking him what his real intention was. ;-) (At the time, I was *absolutely* sure. But, now, I'll never know....) ~Jack

BTW, you were absolutely right. I was (initially) standing by one of the tables near the cage (toward the Fremont street entrance). But after the first contact with the guard, I moved toward the pit so that I was standing between the third base and the first base of the next table. He followed me all the way there, I thought, to "deliver a message".

Anyway, I'm very GLAD and RELIEVED by the responses on this board. Looks like I was just being paranoid.... (If anything similar happens again next time, however, I'll definitely ask them if they could give me some sort of proof that I'm being kicked out. :-)

> Sorry Jack but you weren't
> "barred".

> From piecing together your story it is
> obvious that you cashed out at the cage in
> the old part of the HS located across the
> narrow aisle from the BJ tables.

> It was crowded and you lingered in the aisle
> and didn't keep moving when asked to do so
> by security (who are always standing by that
> cage and always asking people to keep
> moving). Instead, you stepped over to a
> table across from the cage, still
> interfering with the foot traffic flow on a
> crowded Friday night.

> Believe me, if you're barred at the HS there
> will be no question in your mind what
> happened.

> If you need a barring story to impress your
> friends, play the Barbary Coast, spreading
> 1-8 on their DD.

> Buick

[Parker]

> From piecing together your story it is
> obvious that you cashed out at the cage in
> the old part of the HS located across the
> narrow aisle from the BJ tables.

Quite likely, since they have now closed the other cage. The cage in the old section is the only cage.

> It was crowded and you lingered in the aisle
> and didn't keep moving when asked to do so
> by security (who are always standing by that
> cage and always asking people to keep
> moving). Instead, you stepped over to a
> table across from the cage, still
> interfering with the foot traffic flow on a
> crowded Friday night.

Indeed. This is especially true if someone is betting big money at one of the tables in front of the cage (which are usually the higher limit tables), but that area is always congested on weekend evenings.

> Believe me, if you're barred at the HS there
> will be no question in your mind what
> happened.

You got that right! Besides, they usually don't bother red chip players there, unless someone is being a real nuisance. Also, the actual backoff would be handled by the pit, rather than security, although the pit critter would probably be flanked by a security goon or two.

> If you need a barring story to impress your
> friends, play the Barbary Coast, spreading
> 1-8 on their DD.

Hell, 1-4 will usually do it. ;-)

[Geoff Hall]

> You got that right! Besides, they usually
> don't bother red chip players there, unless
> someone is being a real nuisance. Also, the
> actual backoff would be handled by the pit,
> rather than security, although the pit
> critter would probably be flanked by a
> security goon or two.

I was under the impression, also, that The Horeshoe will ask you to flatbet, rather than bar you, if you are 'nuisance' value (red chip).
Is this still the case with The Horseshoe or do they now kick you out ?
If the former is still applied then this would further enforce the other opinions in that you were not barred but simply asked to get out of the way, albeit rather rudely.

Best regards

Geoff Hall

[Sidewinder]

Advantage Jack, You said in your post that you play "(about 30~40 hours per weekend)" which is an average of 15-20 hours per day. That's enough to exhaust anyone and I'm guessing that you were asleep on your feet when the guard told you to move. Then you staggered over and blocked a seat at a table without playing. You were no doubt also a little incoherent in your speech and probably looked to them like someone whom had had enough booze, drugs, or playing time. You needed some rest and they did you a favor. Hit 'em Hard, The Side