illsur5: why did'nt the mob stop Thorp from publishing?

[John May]

Mickey MacDougal, a gaming control investigator who played with Thorp, wrote about a primitive "ace-chasing" system in 1942. Ten-count and ace-chasing methods were being used long before this date. I suspect if you looked long and hard enough through even earlier texts you could find references to primitive count-based systems, but most of these have perished.

None of this detracts from Thorp's achievement in developing the primal force of the counting concept into a sophisticated mathematical weapon.

[John May]

> Which proves that ploppies DO care about
> rules.I get tired of hearing many speaking
> that "ploppies dont care about
> rules".

Ploppies do care about rules, but not in the same way we do. The rules changes imposed in the sixties were particulary stupid (restrictions on doubling etc) and destined to annoy ploppies, whilst only partially limiting a counters advantage.
The casinos have demonstrated they can offer terrible games which cannot be easily counted with lots of silly bonuses, games like Superfun or Spanish 21, and have the ploppies lap it up. Hopefully this is only temporary. Hopefully.

[Norm Wattenberger]

> "Scarne was telling everyone that
> listened that it was just another silly
> system. Only after Scarne's death did he
> change his mind and state that not only did
> it work ? but he invented it." After
> who died?? And whose mind was changed?

Scarne's guide (actually a very good text if you throw out the BJ section) stated that counting did not work and BJ could not be beaten. Post mortem, a new edition came out that claimed that it did work and that he was a pre-Thorp counter. At least that's how I remember it.

[Franz Joseph and von Clausewitz]

was a telegenic sleight of hand artist who was knowledgeable on gambling, including cheating and basic math of independent trials games, e.g. craps, but did not have the knowledge to determine the correct basic strategy, let alone counting strategies. He scoffed at the early pioneers such as Baldwin et al, Thorp, Braun, Wilson, Revere, etc. An earlier generation of less knowledgeable gamblers adhered to Scarne's misinformation.

[Franz Joseph and von Clausewitz]

Do you know of any published references to Mickey MacDougal or other pre-Thorp counters?

[ET Fan]

> Mickey MacDougal, a gaming control
> investigator who played with Thorp, wrote
> about a primitive "ace-chasing"
> system in 1942.

I bought MacDougal's little pamphlet, with one or two paragraphs on blackjack, just to read the section people constantly bring up. It says nothing about carrying counts forward from hand to hand, or even combining information about more than one rank at a time. It simply talks veguely about watching the cards before your eyes, which every intelligent player has done since the dawn of time.

There may have been veteran gamblers who hashed out crude counting systems. But they weren't publishing, for obvious reasons. Thorp was an acedemic, of course, not a gambler at heart.

ETF

[Cyrus]

John's saying that Mickey MacDougal wrote about ace-chasing while you're saying that Thorp was an acedemic. Must be quite similar.

[ET Fan]

> John's saying that Mickey MacDougal wrote
> about ace-chasing while you're saying that
> Thorp was an acedemic . Must be quite
> similar.

Thorp's original ten count didn't distinguish aces from other non-tens.

ETF

[C]

Way I see it, an acedemic is out for aces.
Have some coffee.