aoko: Choosing a counting system for Single deck

[aoko]

Couple of months back I started doing lot of research on net and read lot of books to pick a counting system for single deck. Since Playing strategy for single deck is important I chose to go with AO11 and bought "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos in Reno.

I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts and I expereinced I was bit slow in TC conversion for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after playing for 12 hours last weekend.

Recently I came across www.bjstats.com. Using their Blackjack Counting Results Calculator for EV and SCORE I stumbled upon this.

GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92
4)AO11 with full indices
with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92

Finally assume that I play for about 100 hours with a trip to Reno every month.

There is a good chance I can do (2) without any errors , (3) with some errors and I don't think I can remember all the 180 odd indices and use them effectively in present casino conditions.

Since I am a red chipper extra gains in using (4) over (2) will be in cents.My confusion led to the fact that every where I read KO is not good for single deck and either A011 or H011 are good for single/double decks. But It's damn difficult to chat with PC and dealer while playing with AO11 and I am pretty confident I can do that with KO but with compromise with power compared to AO11

To the experts out there which one should I choose?
A011 which has better gains by slowly adding indices to my arsenal or KO which is easy to implement in casinos?

Regards,
AOKO

[MathProf]

I think this a cross-post of your post on another site, which I answered earlier this AM. However, since you are quoting Norm's statistics, perhaps it is good that you ask it here. I had some questions about the stats you qupted, and maybe Norm can answer.

Here is a copy of my repsonse

Simplicity for Red

Generally speaking, I advocate Simple counts. AO2 is an excellent count for single deck, but it is very hard to play. As you noted you are having trouble using it, and have not even incorporated the Ace side count.

Don's original SCORE article has stats for S17 SD, 31/52. (See BJA 2 page 294). This is not the game your playing, as you were looking at H17. However, it will give us a general idea. It scores A02 at about 110, HiLo at 100 and at 99. So the much harder A)2 count gains you about 10%.

But if fatigue forces you to play shorter sessions and take more breaks, so that you get in 10% less playing time, you really haven't gained anything. There where come a time in your career where you can only play short sessions, for cover reasons, and so the fatigue will not be a big issue. But as a red-chipper you are a long way from that.

Now these SCORES are for A02 with the Ace side count. Dropping an Ace count will hurt significantly. I would be surprised if A02 does better than HiLo or KO for reasonable game conditions.

Now if you are using high betting cover, then the loss of the Ace side count will not be a big factor. Here betting cover could mean a small spread or cover betting with a big spread. An extreme case is flat betting, where A)2 without Ace clearly outperforms HiLo or KO.

Now I was a bit surprised at the stats that you quoted:


GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA, Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03% SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)

2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58

3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92

4)AO11 with full indices

with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92


Now I think these Stats were from Norm, and he does excellent work. So if you have quoted them properly, we should assume that they are correct. (I followed the link, but the Website is only open during certain times of the day.)

I am confused about number 3. This can't be with a side of Aces, because A02 would be doing much better. But I would think that without the Ace side count, A02 would be doing much worse. However, it is only with a 1-3 spread, and that my be low enough that A02 without Aces outperforms HiLo.

But this is only 1-3. As a red chipper, you should be spreading a lot more than that. I suggest you put 1-4 or -16 into your calculator, and compare the results.

> Couple of months back I started doing lot of
> research on net and read lot of books to
> pick a counting system for single deck.
> Since Playing strategy for single deck is
> important I chose to go with AO11 and bought
> "Balckjack for Blood" by Bryce
> carlson. Practised AO11 for a month with
> just Ill 18 indices before hitting casinos
> in Reno.

> I am a red chipper with spreads of 1-3 or
> 1-4. I didn't do any Ace side counts and I
> expereinced I was bit slow in TC conversion
> for playing strategy.I was up 60 units after
> playing for 12 hours last weekend.

> Recently I came across www.bjstats.com.
> Using their Blackjack Counting Results
> Calculator for EV and SCORE I stumbled upon
> this.

> GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA,
> Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

> 1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03%
> SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)
> 2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58
> 3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92
> 4)AO11 with full indices
> with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92

> Finally assume that I play for about 100
> hours with a trip to Reno every month.

> There is a good chance I can do (2) without
> any errors , (3) with some errors and I
> don't think I can remember all the 180 odd
> indices and use them effectively in present
> casino conditions.

> Since I am a red chipper extra gains in
> using (4) over (2) will be in cents.My
> confusion led to the fact that every where I
> read KO is not good for single deck and
> either A011 or H011 are good for
> single/double decks. But It's damn difficult
> to chat with PC and dealer while playing
> with AO11 and I am pretty confident I can do
> that with KO but with compromise with power
> compared to AO11

> To the experts out there which one should I
> choose?
> A011 which has better gains by slowly adding
> indices to my arsenal or KO which is easy to
> implement in casinos?

> Regards,
> AOKO

[aoko]

Thanks for your response Math prof.

##My responses and questions are embedded

> Here is a copy of my repsonse

> Simplicity for Red Generally speaking, I
> advocate Simple counts. AO2 is an excellent
> count for single deck, but it is very hard
> to play. As you noted you are having trouble
> using it, and have not even incorporated the
> Ace side count.

##That's what led me to think about KO. I played for the first time with AO11 and I am not surprised I can't do everything. Sometime in the future I will be moving to Green chip level.
Is it better to improve my skills with AO11 by the time I move to green chip level or go for KO now and move to level 2 later on which I think is very difficult

> Don's original SCORE article has stats for
> S17 SD, 31/52. (See BJA 2 page 294). This is
> not the game your playing, as you were
> looking at H17. However, it will give us a
> general idea. It scores A02 at about 110,
> HiLo at 100 and at 99. So the much harder
> A)2 count gains you about 10%.

## On the same page for 39/52 H17 D10
1-3:AO11(77.98) and KO (59.67)
1-4:AO11(117.05) and KO(94.08)

On www.bjmath.com Pete Moss has a paper which says bank roll doubling times for AO11 is 7400
and KO is 12500.

> Now these SCORES are for A02 with the Ace
> side count. Dropping an Ace count will hurt
> significantly. I would be surprised if A02
> does better than HiLo or KO for reasonable
> game conditions.

> Now if you are using high betting cover,
> then the loss of the Ace side count will not
> be a big factor. Here betting cover could
> mean a small spread or cover betting with a
> big spread. An extreme case is flat betting,
> where A)2 without Ace clearly outperforms
> HiLo or KO.

> Now I was a bit surprised at the stats that
> you quoted:

> GAme conditions: Single deck, H17 DOA,
> Penetration 35/52,Spread 1-3

> 1)Hi-Low with Ill 18 -- EV:1.03%
> SCORE:60.30(for 10K bankroll I beleive)

> 2)KO preffered: EV:1.03% SCORE:61.58

> 3)AO11 with Ill 18 -- EV:1.02% SCORE:62.92

> 4)AO11 with full indices

> with Ace side count -- EV:1.40% SCORE:112.92
> Now I think these Stats were from Norm,
> and he does excellent work. So if you have
> quoted them properly, we should assume that
> they are correct. (I followed the link, but
> the Website is only open during certain
> times of the day.)

> I am confused about number 3. This can't be
> with a side of Aces, because A02 would be
> doing much better. But I would think that
> without the Ace side count, A02 would be
> doing much worse. However, it is only with a
> 1-3 spread, and that my be low enough that
> A02 without Aces outperforms HiLo.

##I assume no 3 is without side count of aces.

> But this is only 1-3. As a red chipper, you
> should be spreading a lot more than that. I
> suggest you put 1-4 or -16 into your
> calculator, and compare the results.

##My bankroll is 2k. Bryce carlson in his book specified 125 max bets. So my max bet should be
$16 for risk ofruin purpose.

Last but not least I am seeing lot of KO bashing in some web sites that it is less powerful in single or double deck games like that and regarding AO11 nobody says it sucks but is very difficult to implement.

Thanks,
AOKO

[Norm Wattenberger]

> (I followed the link, but
> the Website is only open during certain
> times of the day.)

The stats and calculators are open all day. Only the charts are closed part of the day.

> I am confused about number 3. This can't be
> with a side of Aces, because A02 would be
> doing much better. But I would think that
> without the Ace side count, A02 would be
> doing much worse. However, it is only with a
> 1-3 spread, and that my be low enough that
> A02 without Aces outperforms HiLo.

Correct, it is not Ace SC. Obviously this has a cost. But it is single deck. And the PE and Insurance Correlation are far better.

[paranoid android]

I would have a look at the Unbalanced Zen 2 count. It performs about as well or better as most level 2 counts in single deck games and there's no Ace side count or TC conversion. You may want to look in Blackjack Attack page 294 for some count comparisons.

[Dan Z]

When playing SD, you should learn many more indices.

What I always had trouble with were multi-level counts. So I always played hi-opt 1 and side counted 7s and 8s. If this is too much, Hi Opt 1 with just 7s will outperfom any multi-level count on strategy. I also used a 2-1 or 1-2 spread, so I never focused on betting too much.

But learnignindices is probably the easiest part of the game. My trick for doing this was borrowed from my igh scholl French teacher:

Simply write them out dozens of times. Look at the hit and stand indices, and start writing it out again and again. Then move on to soft doubles, hard doubles, and pair splitting.

Just keep writing them out, and they will be in you head for a long time.

Learn each piece separately, and then put them all together.

I think I can still recite the Hi Opt hit/stand indices from the Humble book even though I haven't used them more than one weekend a year in about 4 years.