Chris Villalobos: Red7 or KO

[Chris Villalobos]

I mostly play poker at casinos but I like to have diversions at times.

I remember when I first strarted playing cards. I thought I would be able to glean all the information by using an advanced count and hundreds of indices. I even went as far as thinking I might be able to promote Sklansky's Key count! I've now come to the conclusion that if I want to enjoy the game of blackjack I should probably just use a simple but powerful count.

I was practicing Hi/Low the other day using CVBJ, but I couldn't get the TC to agree with the way I counted. After a couple hours of agrivation I wound up looking a the Red7 count. Since it only counts two cards more than Hi/Low and it doesn't mess with TC I thought what the hell I'll just switch to Red7. But then it occured to me that KO is practicaly Red7.

So which one works the best for a player who can play single decks, but may also play 2 and 4 decks. I don't own KO blackjack so I couldn't compare them myself.

(Maybe if I learn a real simple count like Red7 or KO I could actually have some brain power left to do weird strategy side counts for a single deck?)

CV

[Don Schlesinger]

> So which one works the best for a player who
> can play single decks, but may also play 2
> and 4 decks. I don't own KO blackjack so I
> couldn't compare them myself.

Either would be fine for you. In BJA2, p. 299, there is a very thorough side-by-side comparsion of the two counts in question.

> (Maybe if I learn a real simple count like
> Red7 or KO I could actually have some brain
> power left to do weird strategy side counts
> for a single deck?)

Not even needed. Master one of these first, win some money, and save the fancy stuff for later.

Good luck to you!

Don

[Parker]

You asked the same question on another bj website. Since my response may have gotten lost amid all the usual lunatics who seem to get a kick out of badmouthing KO, I will re-post a portion of it here:

"KO, Red 7, Hi-lo and the other popular level one counts perform pretty much the same, especially for someone who only plans on playing on an occasional basis. One count will out-perform another under specific game conditions, and under different conditions another count will take the lead. The margin is never really significant.

"KO has only been around about 5 years, but it has rapidly become the second most popular count, behind Hi-lo, which has been around nearly 40 years.

"Regarding your sims, how did you count the 7? Since most simulators don't consider suit, the usual kludge is to count all the 7's as .5. However, this is actually more effective than just counting the red 7's, and may explain why Red 7 out-performed KO in your sims. Of course, nothing prevents you from counting the 7's this way yourself, although this makes it more complicated (and technically a level 2 count), which is what you were trying to get away from.

"Bottom line: Either count will get the job done. KO might be a little simpler to use, since you just count all the 7's as 1. Also, the KO preferred matrix ties all the strategy variations to only three numbers, making it easy to learn and use. Besides, you already have the KO book. :-) "

A lot of people badmouth KO. Their reasons seem to revolve around the following:

1. KO is simple.

2. One of KO's developers, Olaf Vancura, now works as a consultant for Mikohn Gaming, a company that manufactures slot machines and other casino equipment. I guess that this somehow makes him a casino spy.

Note that the naysayers usually just say something profound, such as "KO sucks" with no data of any sort to back up their statements.

For a good comparison of the various counting systems, read chapter 11 of Don's Blackjack Attack, 2nd Edition.

As you correctly surmise, the relative simplicity of KO will allow you to add extras such as side counts, and/or devote more energy toward chatting up the pit and laying down a good "act."

I personally used KO for several years with good results before switching to Unbalanced Zen II about a year ago. I played mostly single and double deck games and earned an amount pretty much in line with my expectation.

[Norm Wattenberger]

Sims of KO have surprised me on several occasions. The pile of odd responses you received on bj21 are pure nonsense. It is an excellent strategy. UBZ2 is better particularly at higher penetrations and double deck. But it is a level 2 strategy. KO actually performs well against brh1, a level 3 strategy.

On Parker's comment Regarding your sims, how did you count the 7? Since most simulators don't consider suit, the usual kludge is to count all the 7's as .5. However, this is actually more effective than just counting the red 7's, and may explain why Red 7 out-performed KO in your sims.

This is technically true. CVSim supported the separate suits. However, the difference was so low that I dropped the feature in CVData and now sim all 7's as .5.

[Cacarulo]

1) TKO [true-counted KO (all 7's +1)]

BC = 0.977
IC = 0.813

2) TR7 [true-counted R7 (red 7's +1)]

BC = 0.972
IC = 0.800

3) TH7 [true-counted H7) (all 7's +1/2)]

BC = 0.983
IC = 0.810

This system is very powerful but as Parker's have said it's technically a 2-level count.

4) Hi-Lo

BC = 0.968
IC = 0.789

Sincerely,
Cacarulo

[Chris Villalobos]

> On Parker's comment: "Regarding your sims,
> how did you count the 7? Since most
> simulators don't consider suit, the usual
> kludge is to count all the 7's as .5.
> However, this is actually more effective
> than just counting the red 7's, and may
> explain why Red 7 out-performed KO in your
> sims." This is technically true. CVSim
> supported the separate suits. However, the
> difference was so low that I dropped the
> feature in CVData and now sim all 7's as .5.

Thanks for answering that question before I ended up asking it.

CV

[Chris Villalobos]

> "KO has only been around about 5 years,
> but it has rapidly become the second most
> popular count, behind Hi-lo, which has been
> around nearly 40 years.

I don't see why Red7's never got much fanfare. Must be the KO hype.

[Chris Villalobos]

> Either would be fine for you. In BJA2, p.
> 299, there is a very thorough side-by-side
> comparsion of the two counts in question.

You mean you won't give me the information for free? ;^)

Thanks for the reponse Don I got your first edition.

CV

[Ken Fuchs]

> "Regarding your sims, how did you count
> the 7? Since most simulators don't consider
> suit, the usual kludge is to count all the
> 7's as .5. However, this is actually more
> effective than just counting the red 7's,
> and may explain why Red 7 out-performed KO
> in your sims. Of course, nothing prevents
> you from counting the 7's this way yourself,
> although this makes it more complicated (and
> technically a level 2 count), which is what
> you were trying to get away from.

My original sims in 1995 differentiated the red 7s from the black ones in an effort to be more correct. Of course "no good deed goes unpunished" as my simulation results were soon after deemed "biased".

With that said, both counts are essentially as good as one another with each have stronger points in given situations.

-Ken

[Ken Fuchs]

> I don't see why Red7's never got much
> fanfare. Must be the KO hype.

I know that Snyder had considered both counts at the time. The state of the art in bj theory and analysis tools were much less than they are now. There was simply not enough "data" and "opinion" to back up a claim that these unbalanced counts were more than just "beginners'" counts.

If Synder had the tools that I had, I am sure that Red7 would be more popular than K-O...and there certainly would have been plenty of "hype".

-Ken

[Loyal Avid Counter.]

KO and Red 7 are marketed as unbalanced systems that do not require true count calculations. To keep things simple and less confusing. I suggest simming KO and Red 7 the way they are marketed.

[Loco]

> "KO, Red 7, Hi-lo and the other popular
> level one counts perform pretty much the
> same, especially for someone who only plans
> on playing on an occasional basis.

Agree completely.

>One count
> will out-perform another under specific game
> conditions, and under different conditions
> another count will take the lead.

Is this true? In The World's Greatest BJ Sim Red 7 seems to consistently outperform KO except at very deep (unrealistic?) levels of penetration.

Personally I now use Red 7 after 20 years of Hi Lo. I didn't pick it over KO because of any objective data, but because I think that Snyder has contributed much more to our understanding of BJ than Fuchs and Vancura. Also, I think that if you could only own one BJ book, Blackbelt in Blackjack would win hands down over Knockout Blackjack.

[Chris Villalobos]

nt