Arnie: Now I'm really confused...

[Arnie]

As I read more AND play more, I'm getting conflicting signals. I was playing six-deck at Mandalay Bay weekly for about three months and winning pretty consistently. Than I learned my odds were better in a single-deck game so I went to Freemont St. last week and plyed the Nugget and the Horseshoe. Got beaten like a red headed step-child! In retrospect, the dealers may have been playing me...low penetration, shuffling when I put out a large bet, chatting me up to break my concentration, etc. Yesterday I read an article in the May issue of Casino Player, which argues that though the odds are theoretically better anda few pros "dabble at the handheld games", most avoid them because the casinos can spot the counters more easily at them. So...do I try the single deck games again, or try to beat the tougher shoe games?

[Pro21]

Theoretically the single and double decks are better but the pit is definitely more vigilant in protecting them. If the dealers are preferentially shuffling (shuffling when the count is positive but dealing to you when it's negative) you may be playing a losing game.

A lot of this depends on what style of play you are more comfortable with and how much you bet. You will be able to play a lot more hours unhindered if you stick to the shoes in big clubs.

[Spokanimal]

In retrospect, the dealers may
> have been playing me...low penetration,
> shuffling when I put out a large bet,
> chatting me up to break my concentration,
> etc.

You are right, the fewer the decks and the better the game, the more vigilent they become and the more countermeasures they will use. SD is unique because you have so few rounds to bump your bets and so little opportunity to diffuse your betting strategy to throw them off.

If you want to do more than just hit 'em and move on, you'll have to camouflage your betting strategy and even that will not allow you to play as long as you like. To do this, be sure that you find a game with a low house edge (Wong's "edge" values in CBJN are an excellent source) so that any betting camo will have minimal negative impact on your EV... .19 or better can be found in Vegas & Reno.

Start your session with your usual spread ranges but watch for pit attention to your action (sometimes dealer reaction can be a factor as well) and ramp your bet a couple of units off the shuffle if they're watching. Repeat occasionally as necessary but otherwise work your spreads reasonably but effectively according to your EV/risk tradeoff needs.

The most important thing about casino heat in Nevada is that it's spreads, above all else (but not exclusively), that attracts attention. Once they're watching, the focus will be on what you do off the shuffle and, if you're "pit-aware" and not obsessed with maximum EV, you can keep them uncertain about you long enough to make some dough.

Spok

[Parker]

An intelligent and accurate response, just as I would expect from you.

It's good to see you posting here.

A favor - please take a few seconds and create a profile. Just go to the index page and click on "Create Profile" at the top. You may reveal as much or as little about yourself as you like - or nothing at all.

Once this is done and your profile is approved, your posts will appear immediately when you make them. Also, no one else will be able to use your "handle" and you will have a password stored which will allow you to delete any post you make.

It is only necessary to do this once.

Thanks! :-)

[LVBear584]

You wrote:

> "I learned my odds were better in a
> single-deck game so I went to Fremont St.
> last week and played the Nugget and the
> Horseshoe."

The Golden Nugget does not have normal single deck games, just one table of Superfun 21.

I hope you didn't try to play the Superfun 21 using normal blackjack strategies.

Please clarify.

[learning to count]

I just went three weeks ago to Vegas. I count HI-LO with indices -1 to +6. I played a lot pf single deck and double deck for two days. I play red. I was about 20 units down at the end of theses two days and frustrated.
Single deck for me is hard. First converting to the TC is a, pardon the spanish, "Una perra". You have to divide by fractions. Second you have to find a game that will deal five rounds heads up at a minimum. Impossible! Then to make matters worse when you get a positive count pray to god it is in the later rounds so you can go to two hands to get the all too elusive penetration at 70% or better.

As soon as you sit down others follow. Then forget about the rounds dealt. Over and over I got to a great positive count and low and behold shuffle up! Merde!

Summing up the single deck is that you have to have enough information and deep penetration to make that big bet.The casinos knows that. They protect the game like a latinas virtue in Hialeah.
Then you have to have a great con. I'm Lucky I speak spanish. My buddies and I chatter away. It pisses off the red neck pit bosses who mutter "speak english dis is america." They usually look at us as tourist"s from down under and ignore us. Hey I have heard it over and over the average counter is a W/M, MId 20's to mid 30's, college type who is quiet and has a spread from the minimum to a obvious bet of a advantage player.

On the cover I am lucky. But oh, the game, single deck, is a pain in the rear. But I do know this when you figure it out, as my pro counter friends, always tell me you can do some serious damage. The bishop has a whole series of manuals on playing the single, double etc deck games. Hey its a start. And ask questions here there are a lot of pros who will guide you in this quest. Vaya con dios. PS I did very well on the shoes!

[Spokanimal]

for your kind words, Parker. It's likewise good to see someone of your high calibur as the host on this site.. keep up the good work!

Spok

[Arnie]

> You wrote:

> The Golden Nugget does not have normal
> single deck games, just one table of
> Superfun 21.

> I hope you didn't try to play the Superfun
> 21 using normal blackjack strategies.

> Please clarify.
I'm pretty sure I played double-deck as well as single-deck at the Nugget and that it was straight Blackjack. At any rate, the Horseshoe is where I sensed the most heat.

[Arnie]

Thanks to all for the advice. Guess I'll try single-deck again this coming Monday night. Will try to do a better job of camo, and be more selective in choosing tables. Any suggestions on casinos that fit my situation..eg.-good penetration and rules, but somewhat lax in spotting a newbie's missteps?

[Claymore22]

(Actually, I hope not.) As other posters have pointed out, you _do_ have better 'odds' on single-deck than you would on a shoe. You also have better 'odds' on double-deck. Last trip, my partner & I concentrated exclusively on DD, with good results.

A cursory analysis suggests that there are several reasons why we fared better (as measured in units/hr) on DD than we do on shoes:

* Count variability. We all know that the count tends to move slowly in a shoe, and that you rarely see 'big' numbers for your count--either positive or negative. In single deck (and this is true, too--though to a slightly lesser extent--in double deck), the count moves more rapidly and you will more often see large positive counts, i.e., excellent betting opportunities.

* Number of rounds. It's true that most houses jealously guard the 'integrity' of the single deck game, using the Rule of 6 or worse. On the contrary, though, we were able to find several houses that gave good penetration on their double deck games, meaning that there were a sufficient number of rounds (even with 4 other players, for example) to see some really good counts.

* The Heat Factor. Much of this depends on your act, of course, but I believe that we saw less heat on DD games than on single deck where, again, the pit seems to very vigilant. We were able to spread 1-10 on DD games with few problems.

*Number of choices. DD seems to be popular, or, at the very least, holding its own; as a result, there is a fairly large number of venues, pits within those venues, and tables within those pits from which to choose. This makes it easier to keep sessions short, but still play a lot.

In sum, I'd suggest you might want to try the DD games--almost as good as single deck in terms of the 'odds'--and way better than the shoes.

[Shoeless Moe]

> Thanks to all for the advice. Guess I'll try
> single-deck again this coming Monday night.
> Will try to do a better job of camo, and be
> more selective in choosing tables. Any
> suggestions on casinos that fit my
> situation..eg.-good penetration and rules,
> but somewhat lax in spotting a newbie's
> missteps?

I was downtown last weekend. Lousy pen for the most part. One dealer at a single deck club gave good pen, but only during heads up games. This was the only place where I made any decent money.

[Spokanimal]

It's also easy to parlay bets in DD since there are more rounds to develop this process. Parlay in SD with more than another player or 2 at the table is virtually impossible.

Not sure I agree with the notion anymore that there is less heat at DD in Vegas than at SD. I certainly used to believe it but I'm finding the good DD is being watched closer than ever nowadays... You're literally under a microscope at V---t---, H--t-- and B---y-.

Finally, another note about betting camo, which is easier all the way around with DD I might add.
My advice is to use many different spreading patterns and interleave them as you play. As an examply, I might start with 2 reds on a single circle and spread to as much as 2 circles with a red and 2 greens on each. Once I've done that, I don't return to red and, if noticed by the pit, I'll go 1 or 2 straight green on the circle(s).

After the shuffle, I'll drop back to maybe 3 red on a single circle if the pit didn't notice the hidden greens on the prior round (it's good to slightly slant the stack in the direction of he pit when stacking both colors) or stay with a single green as my new, benchmark, off-the-shuffle betting unit if the pit HAD noticed the hidden green on the prior pack and spread accordingly off that new unit.

I never drop back to red in an initial green pack... always wait for at least one shuffle to do so then make sure it's at least 3 red when you do and maybe accompanied by... "jeez, 2 losses in a row and I'm running low on dough. Once back in red, wait for something really juicy before returning to green.

Once in green, I'll sometimes go as high as a couple of green units off the top if I'm really under scrutiny with the intention of flat betting it if the count's positive or dropping to a single green under a red if it goes neg. If round 3 or 4 goes seriously neg., the green underneath becomes a red or 2 and the pit is left scratching their head as to what was under that damn red-chip slanted toward them in the prior round.

Enough of all this and... those key times that a couple of reds baloons into 2 circles of several greens under a red on a monster count won't be all that noticed and there's your push for EV.

Do this well enough and multi-hour playing sessions will give you time to sip your non-alcoholic drinks.

Do I sometimes do naked spreads with impunity? Sure.. there are plenty of places outside of Nevada where 20x1 and 50x1 with no camo is possible... sometimes even at DD, but camo is essential in most Nevada venues unless you're a hit-hard-and-run kind of guy. Nothing against hit-and-run... everybody has their style and I've been known to do it now and then to mix things up when I need some exercise walking between casinos.

Good luck all,

Spok

[ET Fan]

The others seem to be assuming you are an advantage player. Although you use some inside terminology, you also say some other things that lead me to doubt this. This is not to put you down in any way, it's just that I've learned most new posters don't have the background we tend to assume.

The fact is you should be confused. There is no magic formula like "1 deck is best." If it were that easy, everyone would do it, and the casinos would go out of business. 1 deck is best for SOME players at SOME casinos that have certain rules, penetration, etc. The devil is in the details.

To get UNconfused, you need to read several technical books (like those in the catalog here). To actually win in the long term, you also have to memorize some stuff, and practice like one possessed.

For example, can you tell us what system you use, and what count at which you would stand with hard 15 v T?

Good luck,
ETF