Torve: KO/Schlesinger question

[Torve]

I?m trying to correlate the KO system with Don Schlesinger?s back-counting practices. For example, if Don likes to wong in at a true count of 2, what would that be in the KO system? Since the true count is adjusted according to the number of decks left to be played, and the running count in KO is not, I know there?s not a single, exact answer. But what?s a good rule of thumb?

[Don Schlesinger]

> I?m trying to correlate the KO system with
> Don Schlesinger?s back-counting practices.
> For example, if Don likes to wong in at a
> true count of 2, what would that be in the
> KO system? Since the true count is adjusted
> according to the number of decks left to be
> played, and the running count in KO is not,
> I know there?s not a single, exact answer.
> But what?s a good rule of thumb?

You should be reading the K-O book tounderstand how these things work.

If you start your count at -4*number of decks (say, -24 for 6-deck), then, for each deck that is dealt, you expect the count to rise by 4 points, for the imbalance in the count. After one deck is dealt, you expect -20, so if, instead, you are all the way up to -10, you're 10 points higher than expected, with 5 decks remaining, which is equivalent (roughly) to hi-lo TC of +2.

With two decks dealt, you'd expect to be at -16, so if you're at -8, you're 8 points higher, with 4 decks remaining, for TC = +2, hi-lo.

Now, see if you can complete the chart!

Don

[Torve]

> You should be reading the K-O book
> tounderstand how these things work.

> If you start your count at -4*number of
> decks (say, -24 for 6-deck), then, for each
> deck that is dealt, you expect the count to
> rise by 4 points, for the imbalance in the
> count. After one deck is dealt, you expect
> -20, so if, instead, you are all the way up
> to -10, you're 10 points higher than
> expected, with 5 decks remaining, which is
> equivalent (roughly) to hi-lo TC of +2.

> With two decks dealt, you'd expect to be at
> -16, so if you're at -8, you're 8 points
> higher, with 4 decks remaining, for TC = +2,
> hi-lo.

> Now, see if you can complete the chart!

> Don

It's making a little more sense. I figure for a 6 deck game starting with a count of -24, TC +2 would be at -6 for 3 decks remaining, -4 for 2 decks remaining, and -2 for 1 deck remaining. Right?

[Don Schlesinger]

> It's making a little more sense. I figure
> for a 6 deck game starting with a count of
> -24, TC +2 would be at -6 for 3 decks
> remaining, -4 for 2 decks remaining, and -2
> for 1 deck remaining. Right?

Right!

Don

[Jack Rabbit]

Hi folks. I use KO with an IRC of 10, key count of 26 and pivot of 34 for six deck games. If the count goes negative, I'm gone. Let's see if I can come up with the rough +2 true count numbers for this scheme:

5 decks left 24
4 decks left 26
3 decks left 28
2 decks left 30
1 deck left 32

As you can see, this thread has peaked my interest. I hope I'm right! Thanks for the insight Don (and Go JETS).

JR

[Don Schlesinger]

> Hi folks. I use KO with an IRC of 10, key
> count of 26 and pivot of 34 for six deck
> games. If the count goes negative, I'm gone.
> Let's see if I can come up with the rough +2
> true count numbers for this scheme:

> 5 decks left 24
> 4 decks left 26
> 3 decks left 28
> 2 decks left 30
> 1 deck left 32

> As you can see, this thread has peaked my
> interest. I hope I'm right!

100%. A+!

Don

[quark]

So, Don... One queation for you. You seem quite the expert on Hi-Lo, KO, and even Red 7 (probably due to Snyder). So what count do YOU use. I realize that you will probably say "any so long as you learn the system wel". But what does the "guru" use? Never heard you mention it!

quark...

[Telescopic]

Also Don, when referering a questioner to a page number in your book, do you have the book memorized as such so that you can recall a page number or do you have to reference it to make sure? :->

Telescopic

[Seven]

Mr. Schlesinger uses the RPC count w/165 indices (that he can`t shake from his head).



Seven

(p.s. Don, I know this might be bad form, but I read with interest your response concerning the Express vs Lite indices. I tried counting using the RPC values and found it a remarkably simple count (after 1 night I`m already under 20 seconds, 6 seconds to go!).

How would you round the indices of the RPC to create a Lite/Express version?

Thanks Don!

[Don Schlesinger]

> Mr. Schlesinger uses the RPC count w/165
> indices (that he can`t shake from his head).

>

I gotta tell you, I love it when people quote verse and chapter from the book back to me! :-)

> (p.s. Don, I know this might be bad form,
> but I read with interest your response
> concerning the Express vs Lite indices. I
> tried counting using the RPC values and
> found it a remarkably simple count (after 1
> night I`m already under 20 seconds, 6
> seconds to go!).

> How would you round the indices of the RPC
> to create a Lite/Express version?

> Thanks Don!

Never have given it too much thought. Obviously, since all the "Lite" indices are "herded" into only two bins, one would have to do a similar grouping for the RPC. I don't much approve of these shortcuts, as I'm quite convinced that a motivated person ought to be able to be a little more accurate. In a sense, it defeats the entire purpose of learning a higher-level count only to turn around and "dilute" the precision of the indices by estimating so many of them.

Don

[Don Schlesinger]

> Also Don, when referering a questioner to a
> page number in your book, do you have the
> book memorized as such so that you can
> recall a page number or do you have to
> reference it to make sure? :->

I have many pages memorized, but what I do very well is "see" where the answer is, so that I can find the page extremely quickly and then just note it in my post.

Fortunately, I can do that with many other books beside my own. I don't always know the answer to every BJ question, but with my rather extensive library and my ability to know exactly where to go to find an answer, I can usually respond very quickly.

Don

[Franz Joseph]

Do you recommend the Revere Point Count for intermediate-level players? I play low stakes multi-deck games in AC and on the LV Strip. What about the 1971 (Ace-Reckoned) Revere APC? Which Revere APC did you use in Chapter 10 of BJA?

[Seven]

Thanks Don!

I apologize for troubling you with questions that could be answered by BJRM (can`t get it, long boring story), but here goes:

1) I understand that the bet spreads in BJA are based on using Hi-Lo (each TC point= .517), can I scale these same bet spreads with the RPC (TC=.27)? (ie crude example...max bet at +5 for Hi Lo, therefore should I use a max bet at 9.57 for the RPC (5*.517/.27=9.57)?

2) Optimal entry points given for backcounting the shoe game appear to be the same for RPC as the Hi Lo in the 5/6 S17 DAS Ls game, does this extend to all the other (shoe) games as well?

3) In chapter 12 you give a nice chart regarding the optimal departure points with the Hi-Lo. Should I scale these as well, for the RPC, or can I use the same numbers.

4) Where can I find part 2 of Chpt 12?

5) Why is it that the RPC is outperformed by the Hi Lo in a few sims (single deck, low spread). The RPC`s BC, PE, and INS are all superior...

6) Any chance you could email me the indices for the RPC (OK, that last one was pushing it

Thanks Don, sorry for the essay!

Seven