Hi there,
I have come accross a number of foreign games where you may double on soft 19 but it counts as a hard 9 if you double, so if you draw a 2 the total is 11 not 21.
How does this effect doubling on soft 19 for the card counter? Any ideas.
Many thanks
Mr.Pro
You have to think of it is having a total of 9 or 19. Which is better? Never worth it at any TC.
> You have to think of it is having a total
> of 9 or 19. Which is better? Never worth it
> at any TC.
Actaully, I ran some BJ calculators I found online, and according to them, with the following rules:
6 decks, S17, D9+, DAS, no resplitting, no draw on split aces, no surrender, NoHoleCard
the Expected Value for:
A8 vs 6
is:
+49.36% for Standing
+48.03% for Doubling,
the difference being only 1.33% in EV (I don't know whether those calculators counted A8+DD2 as 11 or 21...)
Also against a 5 you'd only lose less than 3% in EV for Doubling instead of Standing.
So, the simple rule is always stand on soft 19.
I figure there might be some counts for which it could be worth doubling against a 6 or 5....
But if you double on your soft 19 and catch a deuce, you will have 11 instead of 21. Basically the question is whether doubling hard 19 is better than having a total of 19. There is no true count at which it is better.
> But if you double on your soft 19 and catch
> a deuce, you will have 11 instead of 21.
> Basically the question is whether doubling
> hard 19 is better than having a total of 19.
> There is no true count at which it is
> better.
Hmmmm... the Optimal Plays and EV values for BS are devised taking into account ALL of the possible card outcomes, while all the objections I usually hear are based on a single specific bad value.
I read for instance that assuming BS is based on the dealer getting a ten is a common myth, and that some plays defy common sense exactly because the weight of all 13 cards overcomes what seems to be most evident...
___
I don't know about the rule about getting a 2 on A8.
Coincidentally, I'm going to Casino in 10 minutes and I'll ask.
ANYWAY, that's not the only card you can get.
And sorry, but I don't understand why you talk about "doubling HARD 19", I find it very misleading in the context. Maybe you meant hard 9?.
The fact remains that with given set of rules, the call of Standing A8 vs 6 or even 5 is *rather marginal* over Doubling.
For now I have to take your TC statement at its face value, as I have no practice yet of counting at all.
For sure it will be one of the things I'll check for myself once I get the expertise, hope you won't mind ;^)
> But if you double on your soft 19 and catch
> a deuce, you will have 11 instead of 21.
> Basically the question is whether doubling
> hard 19 is better than having a total of 19.
> There is no true count at which it is
> better.
I replied yesterday to this message (~20hrs ago), but it didn't appear yet (I don't think there was anything inappropriate in it to get it blocked by moderators! ;^)).
I have some more info, and reflected better on what you meant.
I asked to a couple of dealers (I went to play in between the two posts...), and they both said
"Yes, A-8-2 is counted as 21 in any case, why? Now you make me doubt..."
So I finally asked to a "chef", who told me:
"On which totals can you DD here? On 9-10-11.
Can you DD on a 19? No.
See? you answered yourself about how much your A-8 is worth after DDing it."
Interestingly, the dealers were not properly informed and/or aware of it! The two I asked, at least, would have paid me the 21!
Anyway.
You problably meant, the choice is between doubling a hard 9 (not 19 as you typed), or standing with your 19.
BTW, the difference between the houses who would still consider a doubled soft 19 as a soft hand, is only in case you get a 2 indeed.
If you get an A, you make 20 anyway (19+1 = 9+11).
If you get > 2, your soft hand becomes hard anyway, just like starting from a 9.
I should blame then the BJ calculators I found online.
Against a dealer's 6, for instance they stated that (under my rules) Doubling an:
A8 has EV of +48.03%
H9 has EV of +32.94% (avg of 7-2, 6-3, 5-4 values)
That difference cant' be of course credited to the different removal effects of different starting couples... it is evidently due, as you say, to ignoring the "2 effect" you report.
In THIS case, I agree with you that a difference of over 16% in EV it's highly unlikely to be tilted under whatever count.
Thank you for pointing out.
That's a flaw of those BJ calc sites, methinks.
I mean, they let you specify the doubling parameter, i.e. they KNOW and offer you to calculate the EVs with the D9-10-11 rule and not DOA.
I wonder whether such rule *imposes* to consider a soft19 as a hard9 WHEN you double, or if that's just the house option...
I might maybe consider to invest in some of Norm's software, instead of relying on free online ones... :-D
> I replied yesterday to this message (~20hrs
> ago), but it didn't appear yet (I don't
> think there was anything inappropriate in it
> to get it blocked by moderators! ;^)).
Nothing inappropriate at all - you 'll notice it is up now. A simple matter of accidently hitting "return to index" instead of "approve." Sorry.
Why don't you take a few seconds and register your "handle" so I can give you "bypass moderation" status and your posts will appear immediately? Just click on "Submit Profile" at the top of any index page. It is not necessary to divulge any personal information, just enter your "handle" and a password.
You will also then be able to delete any of your posts, should you ever have a need.
Masquerace, I think you may have missed an important point in this thread.
Mr. Pro and Safeplay seem to be talking about a game in which you may only double on totals of 9, 10 or 11. In these games, you are usually permitted to double hands consisting of A8, A9 and (sometimes) AT, but the ace will count as one only.
Now, the only case where this actually matters is where you double A8 and draw a 2. In a normal DOA game you would have 21, but in this type of game you would have 11. This is enough to make it better to stand on this hand regardless of the true count (or at least, up to +20 or so).
Hope that helps.
> Masquerace, I think you may have missed an
> important point in this thread.
> Mr. Pro and Safeplay seem to be talking
> about a game in which you may only double on
> totals of 9, 10 or 11. In these games, you
> are usually permitted to double hands
> consisting of A8, A9 and (sometimes) AT,
> but the ace will count as one only .
> Now, the only case where this actually
> matters is where you double A8 and draw a 2.
> In a normal DOA game you would have 21, but
> in this type of game you would have 11. This
> is enough to make it better to stand on this
> hand regardless of the true count (or at
> least, up to +20 or so).
> Hope that helps.
Thanks Magician, and sorry for the back-to-back posts.
I *think* that in my second one I had indeed acknowledged safeplay's reasons and basically got to your same conclusions.
Thank you anyway for summarizing them much more clearly and effectively than I could.
I insist that relying on free online BJ calculators got me wrong.
Although some of them let you specify detailed rules for your game, they then do not apply them consistently thruout the calculations.
For instance, I realised that some let you define D9 as a rule, but then still apply DOA when calculating split hands (or soft doubled as in our case)...
And as I posted, even two dealers from the Campione d'Italia casino (italian territory but inside the Swiss borders), inquired, would have paid me a doubled A8 with a 2 as a 21 (that is, contrary to the logical house rules, later ascertained inquiring an inspector)! Talk of confusion! ;^)
...they were two young and nice girls, maybe they got mesmerised by my "charme" :-D
> But if you double on your soft 19 and catch
> a deuce, you will have 11 instead of 21.
> Basically the question is whether doubling
> hard 19 is better than having a total of 19.
> There is no true count at which it is
> better.
you need a higher true count, s19 vs a 5 or 6 jumps from true 1 to true 3 or 4 from memory.
Remember your trying to get a face card not a two, but like all the soft doubles your waiting for the dealer to bust.
> you need a higher true count, s19 vs a 5 or
> 6 jumps from true 1 to true 3 or 4 from
> memory.
Can you give a reference for this? In PBJ, Wong does say "never".
> Can you give a reference for this? In PBJ,
> Wong does say "never".
i had encountered such a game a few vyears ago, and we looked into whether there was a number to double or not.
i cannot recall what source, i think it may have been Griffen,s book. i will chase it up and post it back.
But if Wong says never, i am not looking too good on this one.
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