Does having an edge dampen the fun?

[blackjackomaha]

I remember my first night gambling. A group of friends and I were out of town and wanted to have fun. We successfully got a $5 blackjack table all to ourselves. I plopped down $60 and was ready to go! I didn't notice, or care at the time, whether it was hand shuffled, ASM, or CSM. I didn't care about payouts, playing correctly, deck penetration, doubling restrictions, or side-bets. I was there to gamble - and if luck was on my side, I was going to win the gas $ required to make it home the next day. If not, no big deal. This was a casino and no one was 'supposed' to win. I had a great night (lost my $60) and had plenty to drink.

Fast forward to today. I don't get 'excited' to go anymore. I don't feel a rush when I am winning. I know the math, correct strategies, and what to look for in a good game. Do I still get enjoyment from winning? Hell yes. But is that general excitement ever there? No. I despise playing ANY casino game that I cannot obtain an edge at. If conditions are not ripe, I won't play. I don't get upset over losses anymore, as I know what to expect and know that I will recover. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely enjoy beating the house and tracking my results. My only urge now is to get as much $ out as I can. I know I can do it, and it's become more like a second job as opposed to a hobby.

I wanted to see if anyone else has similar experiences?

[Bella]

I remember my first night gambling. A group of friends and I were out of town and wanted to have fun. We successfully got a $5 blackjack table all to ourselves. I plopped down $60 and was ready to go! I didn't notice, or care at the time, whether it was hand shuffled, ASM, or CSM. I didn't care about payouts, playing correctly, deck penetration, doubling restrictions, or side-bets. I was there to gamble - and if luck was on my side, I was going to win the gas $ required to make it home the next day. If not, no big deal. This was a casino and no one was 'supposed' to win. I had a great night (lost my $60) and had plenty to drink.

Fast forward to today. I don't get 'excited' to go anymore. I don't feel a rush when I am winning. I know the math, correct strategies, and what to look for in a good game. Do I still get enjoyment from winning? Hell yes. But is that general excitement ever there? No. I despise playing ANY casino game that I cannot obtain an edge at. If conditions are not ripe, I won't play. I don't get upset over losses anymore, as I know what to expect and know that I will recover. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely enjoy beating the house and tracking my results. My only urge now is to get as much $ out as I can. I know I can do it, and it's become more like a second job as opposed to a hobby.

I wanted to see if anyone else has similar experiences?

Absolutely. It sounds like you have just traversed into the realm of the blackjack working man. It's like a BJ pro friend of mine says: you gotta be cold blooded. I think such a mentality helps to leave what happens at the table at the table and not let it affect one's personal life.

[muffdiver]

After this many years at it, I can relate to bj omaha's feeling. For myself though, I can truly say that I enjoy the heck out of both AP bj and AP vp. A caveat may be that I only average about 12-14 hours per week at it-------40 hours would be quite different, I'm certain.

muffdiver

[Daggers]

How much approximately do you make doing this? This seems to be fun for me to do as an actual job but if it's going to become boring for me, then I'm not so sure....i

[blackjackomaha]

How much approximately do you make doing this?

Enough I prefer not to go into specifics, but typically play light to chunky green.

This seems to be fun for me to do as an actual job but if it's going to become boring for me, then I'm not so sure....i

I wouldn't necessarily say it's gotten boring; rather, I'm not surprised anymore with large $ wins/losses. Yes, occasionally the frequency of losses makes me call into question whether I'm playing correctly (I think most people tend to wonder why things don't improve after X # of sessions), but I realize those efforts are futile. NV and PV happen when they happen, and the numbers work themselves out with enough time played - as long as you are playing correctly.

So since AP is my second job, I'm less motivated than I was initially. I am motivated enough to go, make a good deal of extra $, and want to go back. But I've lost the initial drive of "OMG I need to go whenever I can as often as I can." I've put a TON of emphasis on scouting for the absolute best conditions; half the time I might scout and find nothing worth playing. Since game quality matters so much to our results, it is extremely important to play only the 'best possible' games offered. I might see plenty of 75% pen 6D games, but if I find that one dealer giving 90-95%, and they deal fast, then bingo!

[Baberuth]

I love being an AP and traveling with my wife or meeting my family in Vegas and then paying for the trip with BJ and comps(most of the time) or at least reducing the cost substantially. Even taking weekend trips to casinos and using the comps and game advantage to help the cost be something we can afford to do.
I try to keep the fun and excitement there by rewarding myself after wins with a Corona and a “winning strut” on the strip into other casinos. Enjoying the sights after a winning session is the best fun of the trip. I refuse to let my enjoyment get interfered with. I make sure my interaction with all other players, dealers and pits is joking, fun and kind.

To all. Keep it fun. It’s a gifted skill, not the math, the show. The more fun you can put in your show, the more rewarding being an AP will be. Make friends and be a caring, compassionate AP and you will be a happy AP. I am thankful this happened to me and thankful for all the sharing from others.

I love Vegas.

Baberuth

[Roswell Crash Survivor]

This video succinctly sum up, in four simple words, my thoughts on the subject...

[bigplayer]

I remember my first night gambling. A group of friends and I were out of town and wanted to have fun. We successfully got a $5 blackjack table all to ourselves. I plopped down $60 and was ready to go! I didn't notice, or care at the time, whether it was hand shuffled, ASM, or CSM. I didn't care about payouts, playing correctly, deck penetration, doubling restrictions, or side-bets. I was there to gamble - and if luck was on my side, I was going to win the gas $ required to make it home the next day. If not, no big deal. This was a casino and no one was 'supposed' to win. I had a great night (lost my $60) and had plenty to drink.

Fast forward to today. I don't get 'excited' to go anymore. I don't feel a rush when I am winning. I know the math, correct strategies, and what to look for in a good game. Do I still get enjoyment from winning? Hell yes. But is that general excitement ever there? No. I despise playing ANY casino game that I cannot obtain an edge at. If conditions are not ripe, I won't play. I don't get upset over losses anymore, as I know what to expect and know that I will recover. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely enjoy beating the house and tracking my results. My only urge now is to get as much $ out as I can. I know I can do it, and it's become more like a second job as opposed to a hobby.

I wanted to see if anyone else has similar experiences?

I am much more entertained when I win, and I win more often than I would if I just played by the seat of my pants. That said, I think someone who brings $100 to the casino and flat bets $5 playing perfect basic on a good slow double deck game at a full table who gets free drinks all night and maybe a free hotel room via a previous mailer offer is getting an advantage against the casino whether they realize it or not.

[darco77]

Great topic, BJO. Yes, having an edge ruins the fun, because the fun is rooted in the mystique of winning when you should lose. It's gambling, you're not supposed to fully understand the game, and you're certainly not supposed to win. Once you obtain the knowledge and skills to beat the game, your expectations change entirely: a win is anticipated, a loss is a cost of doing business. No mystique or elation anymore, just probabilities and outcomes.

This shouldn't bother an AP, since APs strive for longterm success in the game. A ploppy, however, can have his entire outlook destroyed by a little bit of knowledge. I'm sure someone else here has offered sage but unwanted advice to a gambler friend, only to be met with disdain. I personally ruined a certain game for a relative, who angrily scolded that she never wanted my advice in the first place. Gamblers don't want the veil lifted. They don't want to expect to win, because when they fail to come out on top, the disappointment is greater than it was when they were supposed to lose.

Don't ruin the fun for those who only want to have fun. Save your knowledge for someone who is open to having their perspective turned inside out and their preconceived idea of fun completely evaporated.

[Anton Chigurh]

When I'm getting my cash organized, starting a new entry in the log, and driving to the casino, it feels as if I'm going to the dentist. For the first hour in the casinos, I am bored. Man, I hate the first few shoes.

But the activity lifts my spirits and I get this warm feeling as the day goes by, much like the glow after a gym workout, but it's mental. I enjoy pushing myself, watching the shoe over yonder while waiting for the current one to crawl out of its barely-positive doldrums, while yakking with the other players, or enjoying the fixation the pit boss has on that cocktail waitress's magnificent body - a fixation which has blinded him to my back-counting ways.

Sure, it's work. (Disclaimer: I am not a full-time AP). But it's actual work which requires some mental agility, and not a cubicle Guantanamo of saying "Yeah, boss! Great idea, boss!", or wondering whose turf I will be trespassing on if I mention something other than the weather in an e-mail.

And when my day of play ends, it's because of physical limitations or real-life concerns, and not because I'm bored and choose to go home.

[jaygruden]

I am a part-time AP and am one of those who "crossed over" from the dark-side. The first time I played live BJ in an casino was 21 years ago and I was certainly a ploppy who knew something about BS, but made a lot of errors and trusted my "gut" on a lot of plays. The worst thing that could have happened, did happen on that first trip to AC. I won and won and won and kept winning. Starting with a $500 buy in, I cashed out 24 hours later at +$3500. It was the greatest thrill of my life as young buck right out of college. I felt like the king of the world and indestructible. I could not lose and believed I had found the great elixir. I returned 2 weeks later only to lose my @ss. Came back a few weeks later and lost again and again and again.

I then decided to master BS so I could play without error and I succeeded with that goal. I was only playing with a very small disadvantage so I was certain I could overcome only a 1/2% HE. I believed that through proper money management and discipline with my bank, I could beat those small odds. I was looking for that same rush from the first big win and occasionally I found it; but the results were as, one with knowledge, would expect. For many years I went on occasional trips to stores around the country with like-minded friends to have fun, beat the casino at their own game, get free drinks and comps a-plenty; all while playing with a negative edge. I started tracking results and found that the more I played the more I lost, so I would take long breaks and read some "system" books on BJ. With each new "system" I felt I had found the answer. When I first read Thorp's book somewhere around 18-20 years ago, I found it interesting but it was so outdated that it was really not applicable with games I could play, so I felt that counting just wasn't possible anymore given the number of decks and rule changes that had occurred since the book was first published. The media contributed to this misconception (Rainman - only a idiot/genius/savant could count cards through an 8-deck shoe).

I continued to go but it wasn't so much "fun" anymore to keep losing so I quit playing the game for about 5-6 years and found much healthier ways to enjoy my free time. Then PA decided to open up 10 casinos and being a PA resident I took notice, but did not set foot in any of them since they only offered slots and I knew that the HE on the one-armed bandits was too large. A while later and alas, PA voted to add table games to the stores and along comes BJ right into my own backyard. I thought back to some of those big wins I was able to find occasionally and thought that there must be a way to beat a game that has only a 1/2% edge or less using perfect play so I got online and started doing research on the current literature of BJ CC'ing and AP. I found some forums and began lurking. I remember being initially amazed at how many CC/AP's there were "out there" and became fascinated with the concept that these games could actually be beaten. Lurking led to joining forums and posting which led to reading books and using programs to further educate myself. I mastered an easy count and walked into the local stores and won and won and won and won. I had doubled my BR in only 8 months of part-time play and had a lot of fun doing it. But it was a different kind of fun; a much healthier kind of fun. I think maturity had redefined what "fun" was for me and it no longer meant "free drinks, comps, laughing and cajoling at the table with friends and/or strangers". Fun now meant getting a feeling of self-satisfaction in knowing that I was working daily to improve myself to become the best that I was capable of becoming. It was an approach I had adopted in my career, and all areas of my personal life and then I just applied that same concept to CC'ing.

I still get a modest rush when I win but it's not unexpected anymore. The best part of it now is not feeling "crushed" when I lose as used to happen when I believed in the "Gambler's Fallacy". Emotions are at a much more even keel and they seem to continue to even-out the longer I am an AP. The wins are not as exciting and the losses not as humbling; but to me this is a sign of being emotionally healthy. The toughest part of being an AP is the solitude that tends to go with it when you are a solo-player. As a part-time player with a normal career in the real world, you can't exactly talk to your co-workers about your AP adventures. I don't think it plays very well in the gen. pop. and people will have pre-conceived notions about you as being a degenerate gambler if they know you are going on casino excursions in your spare time. However, it is not nearly as lonely as actually being a ploppy degenerate gambler who is looking for that next fix to compensate for something that's missing because at least as an educated AP you are secure within yourself.

I guess my primary point in this long rambling dissertation is that I find "playing with an edge" to still be fun and enjoyable for me. I think it is a much different and healthier type of fun than what came with playing without the edge. However, I don't think I could say this if I were doing this full-time. I have no plans to leave my career because that is still a lot of fun for me.....it is much more fun for me than sitting in a smoke filled casino all day. Once every few weeks and an occasional week long trip a few times per year is more than enough for me to find balance and supplement my income with some nice tax-free coin.

Today I have a day off BTW and it looks like too much time on my hands

[Nick Matteo]

I am a part-time AP and am one of those who "crossed over" from the dark-side....

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing your story with us.

[BookerPA]

Right on point, as far as my perspective, Jay. I have the utmost respect for the full-time AP; I don't have the stamina nor the attention span to be full-time at this stage of my life. I'm in the fourth quarter, hoping for overtime.