How does a Pro handle his BR?

[blackjack avenger]

Playing at that level(pro lifestyle not skill) i'm sure some of you guys are just as good.
The stress must be unreal beside all the research,travel planning,dealing with jet lag BR swintgs the heat generated just to name a few things you have to deal with and if your doing it solo it has to be a tough way to live.
I guess it take a very special type of person to do it.

Would think survival is the primary concern:
Survival of bank
Being able to play

For conjecture:
$100,000
1/10 Kelly
Play so EV> short/long term expenses so bank grows
If ever below $100,000 play more

[HowMany]

Great thread. I'm definitely not a pro but I did manage to grow a $5k bankroll to $35k (not blackjack) over the past 2.5 years. I'm considering using the cash for a blackjack bankroll once I convince myself I'm not going to piss it away at the tables. I would never consider personal assets such as my home, retirement savings, etc as part of my bankroll. That just wouldn't work for me.

If I ever lost my entire roll, I would quit for good.

[Al Mucous]

My friend Kim Lee, thinks exactly the way you do Avenger. He counts all assets, including home as his bankroll. I just can't do that. At the first chance that I was able, I started setting aside funds for a period of living expenses.

Would not the esteemed Mr. Lee exclude from bankroll any funds reserved for known expenses within some reasonable timeframe, such as the coming year or two?

[blackjack avenger]

I hope you are joking because this is a silly plan. I don't think I need to explain why.

$100,000
1/10 Kelly
Non replenishable bank
Expenses coming out

Absolutely I meant it.
Do you think I am the first to write about a pro bank being 6 figures?
1/10 Kelly will keep bets within heat limits and near eliminate drawdown risk.
It would be hard to get 1/4 Kelly $100,000 bets in play regularly. One would end up not playing much and would have a hard time reaching the long run. Especially as one loses places to play.

What exactly is your criticism?

[blackjack avenger]

Three

Setting money aside leads to less money made.

Ex.
Player A
$10,000 bank, EV $40 with all funds in play.
Or
Player B
Set aside $5,000
So EV is now $20

As you make less it gets harder to cover your bills.
Player A will make more over time

[KJ]

Three

Setting money aside leads to less money made.

Ex.
Player A
$10,000 bank, EV $40 with all funds in play.
Or
Player B
Set aside $5,000
So EV is now $20

As you make less it gets harder to cover your bills.
Player A will make more over time

Ok, Avenger, I don't like how you are 'cherry picking' these numbers to make your point. 'Simulation' guys always seem to do this. I mean earlier you threw out $100K bankroll for making your point about playing a small fraction of kelly. I am fortunate enough that I play to a BR of more than 6 figures these days, but that is recent development in the last couple years. And while there are a few pro players on this site that are at that level, few of the members here are. Most are at some stage of building to get to that point and yes, you probably have to take on more risk at times like that.

Now this latest example is even more bizarre and misleading to me. You are giving two examples of how a player with a $10,000 BR should be handling his BR while playing for a living. A player with a $10,000 bankroll should not be playing for a living via card counting, and if he is, he is basically 'hell-mary'-ing it. He's taking a shot. I have some experience with this as the day I decided to support myself I had a BR of $4300. It's more than a long shot, it's almost impossible. You need to get just about every break in the book. It took me 3 full years to build my $4300 just to 5 figures. And I am talking extremely small expenses, paying half of very nominal rent, eating lots mac & cheese and PB sandwiches, no automobile, no extras. Just barely existing. I don't even want to use the word accomplish, because looking back it wasn't an accomplishment, it was nothing more than dumb luck. But as someone who 'went through' this scenario, you should not even be discussing it as if it were a real possibility, which could encourage anyone to start thinking of supporting themselves with $5000 or even $10,000 BR. If you have such a bankroll, you better frigging live in your parents basement with no expenses or be willing to sleep in your car. OR you better have a years worth living expenses set a side.

Now, one more thing about these latest set of numbers. Can you show me where they came from? I mean are you seriously talking that a player with a $5000 bankroll is making EV of $20 an hour? In what universe is this happening? Maybe it is happening if the player is taking on double digit RoR, but it isn't happening with the kind of RoR that you are always talk about. It isn't happening with the low-limit games with extremely crappy rules that a player with such a BR would be forced to play. It isn't happening with limited number of tables that a player with such a BR would be forced to play. It isn't happening with the overcrowded low-limit tables that the player with such a BR would be forced to play. In short, it isn't happening in this world. The only place it is happening is in your world of computer simulations.

[blackjack avenger]

You were talking about a $100,000 BR. Everything is set aside except what you bring into the casino. You were deluding yourself that expenses were not a part of the BR liability. Acting like you were playing 1/10th Kelly. I was playing a higher but still tiny fraction of Kelly (maybe 1/5th or less to keep it within the casino tolerance) that was really lower than my estimate. Whose BR do you think is in greater peril, the one that is conservative estimate of risk and can add to his BR when in a losing streak or the one that has a higher risk than he imagines and must withdraw from his BR on the losing streak?

I did not discount expenses.
Non replaceable bank
Fixed expenses
$100,000 bank
1/10 Kelly
EV must be greater then expenses
If bank is below $100,000 play more

Now the 1/10 Kelly is the defense against variance and allows for very stable bets over time.

Playing at 1/5 Kelly the in play money is at more risk while you have money out of play.

[KJ]

If you live in a computer simulation or the loser loner missing out on life your model is fine

Yikes! I was that 'loser loner' not that long ago. This seems like a harsh term, Tthree. I prefer to think along the lines of 'obsessively focused on advancing towards one's goals' (to the point of having no life).

[blackjack avenger]

Ok, Avenger, I don't like how you are 'cherry picking' these numbers to make your point. 'Simulation' guys always seem to do this. I mean earlier you threw out $100K bankroll for making your point about playing a small fraction of kelly. I am fortunate enough that I play to a BR of more than 6 figures these days, but that is recent development in the last couple years. And while there are a few pro players on this site that are at that level, few of the members here are. Most are at some stage of building to get to that point and yes, you probably have to take on more risk at times like that.

Now this latest example is even more bizarre and misleading to me. You are giving two examples of how a player with a $10,000 BR should be handling his BR while playing for a living. A player with a $10,000 bankroll should not be playing for a living via card counting, and if he is, he is basically 'hell-mary'-ing it. He's taking a shot. I have some experience with this as the day I decided to support myself I had a BR of $4300. It's more than a long shot, it's almost impossible. You need to get just about every break in the book. It took me 3 full years to build my $4300 just to 5 figures. And I am talking extremely small expenses, paying half of very nominal rent, eating lots mac & cheese and PB sandwiches, no automobile, no extras. Just barely existing. I don't even want to use the word accomplish, because looking back it wasn't an accomplishment, it was nothing more than dumb luck. But as someone who 'went through' this scenario, you should not even be discussing it as if it were a real possibility, which could encourage anyone to start thinking of supporting themselves with $5000 or even $10,000 BR. If you have such a bankroll, you better frigging live in your parents basement with no expenses or be willing to sleep in your car. OR you better have a years worth living expenses set a side.

Now, one more thing about these latest set of numbers. Can you show me where they came from? I mean are you seriously talking that a player with a $5000 bankroll is making EV of $20 an hour? In what universe is this happening? Maybe it is happening if the player is taking on double digit RoR, but it isn't happening with the kind of RoR that you are always talk about. It isn't happening with the low-limit games with extremely crappy rules that a player with such a BR would be forced to play. It isn't happening with limited number of tables that a player with such a BR would be forced to play. It isn't happening with the overcrowded low-limit tables that the player with such a BR would be forced to play. In short, it isn't happening in this world. The only place it is happening is in your world of computer simulations.

That's right it can't be done setting aside half your money for expenses. I am sure when your bank was small ALL MONEY WAS IN PLAY! my point all along! :devilish the 10g example (not recommendation) was to illustrate this

[blackjack avenger]

At 100,000, 1/10 Kelly money is set aside:
A session needs about 5 to 10g
A long trip 10 to 25g
The chances of losing half bank is very small

So, much of the bank is "set aside" because the Kelley fraction is so small.

How to set money aside and keep it in play?
Bet a very small fraction of Kelly

[WRX]

Hint: if you're wealthy enough, you're not going to be Kelly-constrained.

[brh]

Ouchez, I have no idea what makes Kim Lee so honorable? You have referred to him in such a manner for as long as I can remember. I am not saying that he is not honorable. I just have no idea. Did he run into a burning village and save all the school children? Is he up for saint-hood? I'll bet the casino industry doesn't think he is so honorable.

Kim Lee is very well versed in the mathematics of BJ. He made some valuable contributions to the subject back on bj21 in the late nineties.

KJ, next time you see him say hi to him for me!

Brh.

[blackjack avenger]

Hint: if you're wealthy enough, you're not going to be Kelly-constrained.

Please elaborate