Thoughts on giving ID at the cage

[mrnobody]

Although I am fairly new to this forum, I have counted to some degree for a long time. My local where I played I was more ploppy than ap due to a lack of discipline and accepting too many mistakes. Therefore, I was a loser until I finally decided to play perfect and be disciplined. They knew who I was and playing anomously was not possible. I played plus ev for what seemed to be a never ending atm. I was spoiled. I cashed out amounts after playing and showed my i.d (they knew who i was for the last 20 years). I played in the HL room and at some point started to get hints they wanted me to slow down. Eventually I got the back off. After the backoff I thought fine, I will play in the other 8 or 9 casinos within a few hour drive. I started getting backed off much quicker from all of them (trespassed at one of them).

I am fairly certain that I am not databased (but not 100%). I was definitely flyered which probably accounted for some of the backoffs (asked not play blackjack using my name when I was playing unrated).

Which brings me to my question, the main thing I underestimated is how much I hate dealing with the cage. I generally play HL, and some a cashout of 3k to 6k is normal. Over 3k (sometimes lower) they always ask for I.D. I always say no, and it becomes a big production. I don't mind being backed off, if you want to trespass me fine---but I hate the i.d. issue. My question is it ever ok for an amount like 4k to simply give I.D to avoid the hassle? I know the answer for most will be if you want to count, just say no and hold your ground. I also know it makes sense to leave and come back to cash out in smaller increments but often that has its own issues (your schedule where you need to leave, being questioned when you played, etc). Generally anything over 3k they ask for I.D, my thought is I feel like many times I bring more attention to myself not giving I.D. than just showing it. There are times I have seen the pit call over to get my i.d when I was cashing out for a small amount. In those instances, I know its best not to give it. But when you have a session that had no heat, your spreads were not super obvious and you didn't split 10s or even double a soft 19 vs 4 is it an option just to give i.d since they are doing it as routine and not out of suspicion?

If the answer, is never give i.d fine. But I just wanted to see if there were any other thoughts on the issue. Thanks

[moo321]

Let's talk about the issues at the cage first. You don't need to cash out after playing. In fact, you probably shouldn't be cashing out after most sessions. If you're starting to get heated up, going to the cage gives them opportunities to escalate. They can demand your ID. Take your picture with the better cameras available at the cage. And so on.


If you want to play a casino regularly and remain unrated, it's a lot easier to do this by maintaining a chip inventory. Just sit down with chips, and start playing. Don't check change, either. Check changes and buying in cash are both opportunities for them to ask for ID or player's card at the table. Just plop down with some chips.


Next, you've got some things to learn about heat management. You said the pit called over to the cage to have them ID you. That means you were heated up. So, you're getting heat and not recognizing that you're getting heat. You need to read Cellini's book, and other materials on casino game protection, and work on learning to recognize and manage heat.


One aspect of heat management is handling names. If you got a backoff from the high limit room at a place you'd been playing for 20 years, you should assume you got flyered across the area. That means you need to stop using your name there for awhile. A week or two at a bare minimum, until your name and face isn't sitting on the top of the pile at every blackjack pit. But a month or two is better.


APs also need to understand how to manage player's cards. They're not for aggressive count games in the high limit room unless the crew is really stupid, and/or the casino is the only one in an ownership group so you don't care too much about the backoff. And even then, they're not for just collecting a free buffet. You shouldn't be risking your name for $20 in comps. Player's cards are for machine play, or stronger methods of beating them with the card. Think Don Johnson stuff.

[mrnobody]

Thanks for the response. I think keeping a chip inventory makes the most sense. Eliminates the cage until it becomes unavoidable. I ordered Celinis book last week and have it already delivered. The issue I mentioned with the PB calling the cage was a situation where the PB clearly was giving me heat so I sensed it and left. As soon as I left, he got on the phone and while in line I saw the cage on the phone and made it clear they were asked to ID me. My mistake was to go to the cage at that point--I should have just left.

[ubiquitin]

Let's talk about the issues at the cage first. You don't need to cash out after playing. In fact, you probably shouldn't be cashing out after most sessions. If you're starting to get heated up, going to the cage gives them opportunities to escalate. They can demand your ID. Take your picture with the better cameras available at the cage. And so on.


If you want to play a casino regularly and remain unrated, it's a lot easier to do this by maintaining a chip inventory. Just sit down with chips, and start playing. Don't check change, either. Check changes and buying in cash are both opportunities for them to ask for ID or player's card at the table. Just plop down with some chips.


Next, you've got some things to learn about heat management. You said the pit called over to the cage to have them ID you. That means you were heated up. So, you're getting heat and not recognizing that you're getting heat. You need to read Cellini's book, and other materials on casino game protection, and work on learning to recognize and manage heat.


One aspect of heat management is handling names. If you got a backoff from the high limit room at a place you'd been playing for 20 years, you should assume you got flyered across the area. That means you need to stop using your name there for awhile. A week or two at a bare minimum, until your name and face isn't sitting on the top of the pile at every blackjack pit. But a month or two is better.


APs also need to understand how to manage player's cards. They're not for aggressive count games in the high limit room unless the crew is really stupid, and/or the casino is the only one in an ownership group so you don't care too much about the backoff. And even then, they're not for just collecting a free buffet. You shouldn't be risking your name for $20 in comps. Player's cards are for machine play, or stronger methods of beating them with the card. Think Don Johnson stuff.

In Inside the Edge, KC mentioned playing unrated at first to get confident in his game, and then establishing a line of credit in Vegas and playing high limit, rated until he was burned out. Basically using playing rated without previously burning himself out as cover to get big bets down. Is this not the best strategy? I know the doc was filmed a while ago, so are the countermeasures better now where this would quickly fail?

I believe Don Johnson had already established himself as a losing player/whale (this is just what he did and not a some type of cover strategy), and then saw an opportunity to take advantage of the comp system. How is a player's card useful if you're not going to establish yourself as a losing player?

[moo321]

In Inside the Edge, KC mentioned playing unrated at first to get confident in his game, and then establishing a line of credit in Vegas and playing high limit, rated until he was burned out. Basically using playing rated without previously burning himself out as cover to get big bets down. Is this not the best strategy? I know the doc was filmed a while ago, so are the countermeasures better now where this would quickly fail?

I believe Don Johnson had already established himself as a losing player/whale (this is just what he did and not a some type of cover strategy), and then saw an opportunity to take advantage of the comp system. How is a player's card useful if you're not going to establish yourself as a losing player?

There isn't one answer. Comps are going to have different value to different players. If you're on a very short bankroll and insisting on trying to build up your bankroll through only counting, then it can be a way to lower your costs, which will dramatically lower risk of ruin for someone with like a $10,000 bankroll. As an aside, you're probably better off just grinding away doing doordash or something until you get a bigger bankroll.


For a big team, it might make sense to have one guy playing more for comps and/or Don Johnson type of plays (rebates, coupons, etc.). He plays a difficult to detect game that is unlikely to draw heat, and likely to pull a lot of comps. Get a giant suite or a block of rooms for everyone to stay in, and maybe some comped meals. Even on a million dollar bankroll, not having to pay for thousands of dollars worth of rooms every time your team goes to Vegas for a week is important to the bottom line and risk profile. Even more important from a morale perspective. Players don't have to risk their identities, but they still get to live the high life.


For a mid-level solo player, it may not make sense to risk your identity for comps at all. If you have $50,000 and you're making $100 an hour at the tables, you can just deal with the expenses.