Poor penetration,crowded table or walk?

**8675309** · 03-22-2024, 11:31 AM

Hi all. Quick question, if you drive couple hours or more to get to a casino and you had a choice between crowded tables with great penetration or heads up with poor penetration then what's your move? Or do you walk and play neither? One of my locals has very wide range of penetration, some great and some poor. Many times I can play heads up for a bit but the dealer is known for terrible cut. Thanks

**21forme** · 03-22-2024, 12:38 PM

In my experience, if you sit down at an empty table, others will join shortly thereafter, so with poor pen, it will be a bad game (unless it's NMS and stays heads up). Conditions are always changing. Walk around for a bit or get something to eat, then come back and see what it looks like. It would be a shame to just leave after a 2 hour drive.

**8675309** · 03-22-2024, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by 21forme

In my experience, if you sit down at an empty table, others will join shortly thereafter, so with poor pen, it will be a bad game (unless it's NMS and stays heads up). Conditions are always changing. Walk around for a bit or get something to eat, then come back and see what it looks like. It would be a shame to just leave after a 2 hour drive.

Thanks, I've had the exact same experience. There can be 3 empty tables and I'll be heads up at another and 4 people will all sit down at mine. It's like they are afraid to play without a full table. Also many times after a couple players sit down and I hop to next empty table over, I'll look back in 2 minutes and they will be gone.
I agree conditions change fast but casinos also shut down tables as quickly as possible when the crowd starts leaving also. That and so many dealers that are very slow and all of the side bet play makes it tough to get a good fast game.
I just wondered if forced to choose between a full table with good penetration and heads up with poor penetration which would be the lesser of the two evils.

**Archvaldor** · 03-22-2024, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by 21forme

In my experience, if you sit down at an empty table, others will join shortly thereafter

This happens so regularly casinos should just ignore any kind of lower stakes counting. Counters often act as effective shills and generate more income for the casino than they cost the casino in EV.

**Cacarulo** · 03-22-2024, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by 8675309

Thanks, I've had the exact same experience. There can be 3 empty tables and I'll be heads up at another and 4 people will all sit down at mine. It's like they are afraid to play without a full table. Also many times after a couple players sit down and I hop to next empty table over, I'll look back in 2 minutes and they will be gone.
I agree conditions change fast but casinos also shut down tables as quickly as possible when the crowd starts leaving also. That and so many dealers that are very slow and all of the side bet play makes it tough to get a good fast game.
I just wondered if forced to choose between a full table with good penetration and heads up with poor penetration which would be the lesser of the two evils.

I believe the best thing is for you to look for tables with good penetration, sit down to play, and instead of waiting for the table to fill up (as in the other scenario), wait for the players to leave.

Sincerely,
Cac

**8675309** · 03-22-2024, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Archvaldor

This happens so regularly casinos should just ignore any kind of lower stakes counting. Counters often act as effective shills and generate more income for the casino than they cost the casino in EV.

So true they should pay us instead of hassling us. Lol

**21forme** · 03-22-2024, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by 8675309

So true they should pay us instead of hassling us. Lol

They do both

**marriedputter** · 03-22-2024, 06:13 PM

Easy decision. You should play at the good pen, and here's why:

Three possibilities:

1. Low cards come out: As the count rises, people lose in the long run (while the low cards last). Your "comrades" are helping to eat those cards and they are losing along the way (again, in the long run). If you're lucky, a few will leave this table due to running out of money or wanting to switch tables. You are now deep into the shoe with a high count and less players. If new players show, they generally wait until the shoe is over before jumping in.
2. High cards come out: As the count lowers, people (including you) win in the long run (while the high cards last). Once you hit true -2 (or whatever your limit is), you can jump out. Wait until you lose a hand though.
3. Floats between -1 and +1 the whole shoe: You will be at a disadvantage, but only a tiny one. As cards get eaten, maybe people will leave close to the end of the shoe and you may get some depth charge. And it also looks to the casino like you play more and don't wong in/out constantly.

**8675309** · 03-22-2024, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by marriedputter

Easy decision. You should play at the good pen, and here's why:

Three possibilities:

1. Low cards come out: As the count rises, people lose in the long run (while the low cards last). Your "comrades" are helping to eat those cards and they are losing along the way (again, in the long run). If you're lucky, a few will leave this table due to running out of money or wanting to switch tables. You are now deep into the shoe with a high count and less players. If new players show, they generally wait until the shoe is over before jumping in.
2. High cards come out: As the count lowers, people (including you) win in the long run (while the high cards last). Once you hit true -2 (or whatever your limit is), you can jump out. Wait until you lose a hand though.
3. Floats between -1 and +1 the whole shoe: You will be at a disadvantage, but only a tiny one. As cards get eaten, maybe people will leave close to the end of the shoe and you may get some depth charge. And it also looks to the casino like you play more and don't wong in/out constantly.

Thanks

**ShipTheCookies** · 03-22-2024, 11:59 PM

Casinos are full of all different kinds of +EV opportunities. Learn other stuff so these trips aren't wasted.

**Sundown** · 03-23-2024, 02:47 AM

ShipTheCookies can you give a few examples?

**8675309** · 03-23-2024, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies

Casinos are full of all different kinds of +EV opportunities. Learn other stuff so these trips aren't wasted.

I've ran across one hole card flasher in my years but to be honest I don't watch for them nearly enough.
I need to change that for sure. But as far as other AP opportunities other than promotions, hole carding and counting then I don't know.

**ShipTheCookies** · 03-23-2024, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by 8675309

I've ran across one hole card flasher in my years but to be honest I don't watch for them nearly enough.
I need to change that for sure. But as far as other AP opportunities other than promotions, hole carding and counting then I don't know.

Not everything has to do with table games.