Is it fair to say “Beat The Dealer” is the worst scam ever ?

**Secretariat** · 03-20-2024, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Archvaldor

That person had a grudge against everyone selling card counting systems not just Thorp.

John Scarne

He was a card mechanic (magician) and he challenged Thorp.
Thorp was ready to accept the challenge but conditional to having a fair dealer.
That did not happen.

EDIT: It might have been the reverse. Thorp challenged Scarne. Not sure. They never agreed to the conditions.

**Secretariat** · 03-20-2024, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Believe he was initially being beat (variance), but came back turning the weekend into a winner.

I think you're right and he made a lot more than the initial loss.
Bottom line is that he scared the hell out of the casinos.

**DSchles** · 03-20-2024, 01:57 PM

No, Scarne challenged Thorp. But there was nothing in it for Thorp--no reason to accept such a challenge. You can't ever play enough hands manually to prove anything about blackjack. And high-speed simulators didn't exist at the time.

Scarne was one of the greatest card magicians I've ever seen. I was in awe of hm. He was also a talented mathematician, and his Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling was, at the time, one of the greatest books on the subject ever written. But, while he was deadly accurate in his analyses of virtually all of the other casino games, he got a lot of the blackjack part wrong, because, well, the math of blackjack is a great deal more difficult and complicated. And so, when people read him today, especially blackjack players, they tend to disrespect him and paint all of his work with a single brush (the blackjack one), which is simply not fair.

That said, he was an extremely cocky individual who practiced self-aggrandizement in the best Trump style. And so, when Thorp came along and stole all of Scarne's thunder, Scarne did what Trump would do--he attacked unmercifully anyone who disagreed with him. In the end, he would wind up an extremely bitter person, who saw the gaming world eventually pass him by, which must have been very hard for him to swallow.

You might be interested in the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Scarne
https://www.blackjackhero.com/blackjack/strategy/card-counting/history/thorp-scarne/

Don

**Secretariat** · 03-20-2024, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by DSchles

Scarne was one of the greatest card magicians I've ever seen. I was in awe of hm. He was also a talented mathematician, and his Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling was, at the time, one of the greatest books on the subject ever written. But, while he was deadly accurate in his analyses of virtually all of the other casino games, he got a lot of the blackjack part wrong, because, well, the math of blackjack is a great deal more difficult and complicated. And so, when people read him today, especially blackjack players, they tend to disrespect him and paint all of his work with a single brush (the blackjack one), which is simply not fair.

That said, he was an extremely cocky individual who practiced self-aggrandizement in the best Trump style. And so, when Thorp came along and stole all of Scarne's thunder, Scarne did what Trump would do--he attacked unmercifully anyone who disagreed with him. In the end, he would wind up an extremely bitter person, who saw the gaming world eventually pass him by, which must have been very hard for him to swallow.

Thanks for the perspective Don. Scarnes was a fascinating man it seems. I'll get a couple of his books.

**ShipTheCookies** · 03-20-2024, 07:47 PM

Wasn't thinking Scarne, but another with "JS" in their name.

**Iwantmoney** · 03-20-2024, 08:17 PM

If something works and is true how is it a scam? Were there empty promises? Though I did not read the book.

**Archvaldor** · 03-22-2024, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Secretariat

John Scarne

He was a card mechanic (magician) and he challenged Thorp.
Thorp was ready to accept the challenge but conditional to having a fair dealer.
That did not happen.

EDIT: It might have been the reverse. Thorp challenged Scarne. Not sure. They never agreed to the conditions.

I was actually referring to Doug Grant.

Scarne would presumably not be posting to any kind of board except the ouija variety.

**Secretariat** · 03-22-2024, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Archvaldor

I was actually referring to Doug Grant.

Scarne would presumably not be posting to any kind of board except the ouija variety.

I did not know Doug Grant. I've just read some stuff about him. He was a card counter but I did not find anything about a conflict between him and Thorp specifically. Can you explain a little more?

Shipthecookies talks about some "J.S." guy also being in conflict with Thorp.
I would like to hear a little more about that too.

**ShipTheCookies** · 03-22-2024, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Secretariat

I did not know Doug Grant. I've just read some stuff about him. He was a card counter but I did not find anything about a conflict between him and Thorp specifically. Can you explain a little more?

Shipthecookies talks about some "J.S." guy also being in conflict with Thorp.
I would like to hear a little more about that too.

JStat

**DSchles** · 03-23-2024, 09:28 AM

Doug Grant was, unequivocally, the biggest piece of garbage that God ever made the mistake of putting on this earth. John Stathis was close behind. Throw in Stanley (Sludikoff) Roberts and you have the unholy triumvirate of three of the all-time lowlifes in the history of the game.

Don

P.S. Oh, I forgot a fourth: "Stalker," a bosom pal of James Grosjean.

**Archvaldor** · 03-23-2024, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by DSchles

Doug Grant was, unequivocally, the biggest piece of garbage that God ever made the mistake of putting on this earth.

I imagine that would be Hitler or Stalin but I must admit he was probably more annoying than either.

**Norm** · 03-23-2024, 05:11 PM

I talked to two of Doug's lawyers over the years. The second after he FedEx'ed me this very thick legal threat. The lawyer said Doug was nutty and gave me another story about him. Odd thing for a lawyer to do.

**Archvaldor** · 03-23-2024, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Secretariat

I did not know Doug Grant. I've just read some stuff about him. He was a card counter but I did not find anything about a conflict between him and Thorp specifically. Can you explain a little more?

Shipthecookies talks about some "J.S." guy also being in conflict with Thorp.
I would like to hear a little more about that too.

Doug Grant was apparently a guy who ran large card counting teams back in the 80's and 90's. That is what he claimed anyway (no one ever contradicted this so I'm guessing it was true).

At some point during the nineties he went insane and started declaring that card counting was a fraud*. He started various lawsuits against purveyors of card counting systems. He lost.

Jstat is just a weird guy who doesn't really understand card counting theory and who pushes weird systems that don't work very well. He seemed harmless if persistent. Maybe I missed something but he didn't seem to be in Grant's league of unnecessary hostility.

*I am of the opinion card counting is a bit over-hyped and actively dangerous to many under-capitalized players. Grant went way beyond that. He was stating that it don't work under any circumstances in "real-world casino conditions". This is simply false.