What Justifies your max bet and why?

[Secretariat]

I am intrigued! Can you please elaborate more on the middle cards and how they affect the good and bad positive counts. I spent some time with Tarzan in the summer of 2012 in Atlantic City and he obviously counted the mid cards. I guess my question really is how to incorporate the mid card count into a linear count to designate the good and bad positive counts. I understand the key card concept somewhat where a shoe full of 8s and 9s would make you lean more towards hitting a hard 12 but am not really understanding the mid cards and how they affect betting so much, Thanks for any help.

To begin with, fewer mid-cards increases the odds of getting blackjacks but decreases double downs opportunities. Extra mid-cards decreases the odds of getting blackjacks but increases double down opportunities. Leaving playing decisions out, the best way to really feel the effect of mid-cards on EV is to play around with different deck compositions. Go to KC's site BJSRAT and begin experimenting. Obviously EV will be higher when the number of 89s exceeds the number of 67s. You can use Basic Strategy EV or Perfect Play EV. The more extremes the deck compositions are, the worse Basic Strategy performs.

Extra aces with low middle card ratios yields surprising EV at times.

[Freightman]

To begin with, fewer mid-cards increases the odds of getting blackjacks but decreases double downs opportunities. Extra mid-cards decreases the odds of getting blackjacks but increases double down opportunities. Leaving playing decisions out, the best way to really feel the effect of mid-cards on EV is to play around with different deck compositions. Go to KC's site BJSRAT and begin experimenting. Obviously EV will be higher when the number of 89s exceeds the number of 67s. You can use Basic Strategy EV or Perfect Play EV. The more extremes the deck compositions are, the worse Basic Strategy performs.

Extra aces with low middle card ratios yields surprising EV at times.

Very well said. I use a 4 card 6789 bucket simply to keep things in proportion while keeping tabs on aces. No question that 89 surplus is more valuable than 67.

Im tiring more easily these days and find it increasingly difficult to keep up, so, good ir bad, I’m taking a few shortcuts. Even so, I’m really pleased with EV per hour in tight spread within locale and EV per hour playing a somewhat looser spread.

My pet theory of QTC or Quality of True Count has very positive benefit.

[Sundown]

The quality of true count that you mentioned is very real and have experienced it myself. In the Theory of Blackjack by Peter Griffin, he also eludes to the idea of creating a bucket counting technique around the 8s and 9s. I've always thought that since the 8s, & 9s were not worth much mathematically , that we just counted them as 0. Since I already count 7s (I use KO) I noticed that my max bet indicator may not always correlate properly with 10s & Aces, or I really should have it my 12 vs a dealers deuce when my count indicated a richness of 10s and Aces.

Thanks for your commentary as usual, very useful, don't know what if any I'm going to do about this.

[Secretariat]

. I guess my question really is how to incorporate the mid card count into a linear count to designate the good and bad positive counts.

Using Hi Lo with a side count of 789s, or better, two side counts (A/789s) would be the best way to incorprate the mid-cards into a linear count. It takes some practice and some special skills that can be learned if you are truly dedicated.

[moo321]

Using Hi Lo with a side count of 789s, or better, two side counts (A/789s) would be the best way to incorprate the mid-cards into a linear count. It takes some practice and some special skills that can be learned if you are truly dedicated.

I don't know of any professional players that do anything like this. I don't even know of any that side count 7s, which is much easier. About the most complex I've seen anyone do is level 3 balanced counts or level 2 counts with an ace side count.

[Secretariat]

. I don't even know of any that side count 7s, which is much easier. About the most complex I've seen anyone do is level 3 balanced counts or level 2 counts with an ace side count.

Complexity is relative. It's not much harder to side count 789s than just counting 7s. Freighter uses halves (level 3) with A/6789 side counts. Tarzan, the master, used a 4-column count (level 1). He could bet like Hi-Opt II and uses more precise level 1 playing decisions. On top of that, he could uses key cards and seprates 9s from 678s. He was from another planet though. Unless I am mistaken, BJ Genius007 uses Zen with A/89 side counts. There are probably a few others here.

[moo321]

Complexity is relative. It's not much harder to side count 789s than just counting 7s. Freighter uses halves (level 3) with A/6789 side counts. Tarzan, the master, used a 4-column count (level 1). He could bet like Hi-Opt II and uses more precise level 1 playing decisions. On top of that, he could uses key cards and seprates 9s from 678s. He was from another planet though. Unless I am mistaken, BJ Genius007 uses Zen with A/89 side counts. There are probably a few others here.

You need to be really careful with things people say on the internet. I'm not commenting on anyone you just mentioned specifically. But I have seen a lot of people who talk about some really advanced system they're running, and when I watched them play they were making huge bets when it was -2 true count and making basic strategy mistakes.


Most of the people who comment on these boards can't count down a shoe using Hi Lo and play basic strategy correctly. Again, I'm not talking about anyone specifically. I'm just saying, be careful about people making unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

[Freightman]

You need to be really careful with things people say on the internet. I'm not commenting on anyone you just mentioned specifically. But I have seen a lot of people who talk about some really advanced system they're running, and when I watched them play they were making huge bets when it was -2 true count and making basic strategy mistakes.


Most of the people who comment on these boards can't count down a shoe using Hi Lo and play basic strategy correctly. Again, I'm not talking about anyone specifically. I'm just saying, be careful about people making unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

So, in other words - no one in specific but most people in general. Perhaps you’re referring to Don. After all he is no one in specific. Sounds like a non specific but general in nature cheap shot.

No, wait - Your response is attached to comments made by Secretariat referring to specific players. Is it them whom you are referring to who cannot countdown a shoe playing hi lo.

If you've got an issue - spout it.

[moo321]

So, in other words - no one in specific but most people in general.

I meant exactly what I said.

[Freightman]

I meant exactly what I said.

There's something protruding from your left ear.

[Secretariat]

I'm just saying, be careful about people making unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

I would be suspicious of a 21st century blackjack claim offering a SUPER SECRET.

[moo321]

It's not much harder to side count 789s than just counting 7s.

Morbid curiosity has gotten the better of me. How on earth do you even propose keeping all these counts? Main count in plus/minus, then 4 different numbers after? You can't do a number and then a letter like they used to do to track aces in pitch games, because you run out of letters.


And then what do you do with that information? Compare number of 7s to the number of 9s seen, then divide by the number of quarter decks and make an adjustment to the running before betting decisions?


Let's say you want to decide whether to hit a 12 vs. 3. Do you add all of them up, compare to expected number based on quarter decks played, and then make a quick adjustment to running that you then adjust to true for the purposes of deciding if you're past your index?

[Secretariat]

Morbid curiosity has gotten the better of me. How on earth do you even propose keeping all these counts? Main count in plus/minus, then 4 different numbers after? You can't do a number and then a letter like they used to do to track aces in pitch games, because you run out of letters.


And then what do you do with that information? Compare number of 7s to the number of 9s seen, then divide by the number of quarter decks and make an adjustment to the running before betting decisions?


Let's say you want to decide whether to hit a 12 vs. 3. Do you add all of them up, compare to expected number based on quarter decks played, and then make a quick adjustment to running that you then adjust to true for the purposes of deciding if you're past your index?

I should have been more precise. I count 789s as a block not as seperate counts. So if you practice just a little bit side counting, it's not much harder to keep a 789 side count than just counting 7s. Actually, I think it's the just the same level of difficulty. I don't need quarter-deck counts as my strategy is geared toward ratios, a variation of Tarzan/Hi-Lo count.

There's obviously a limit to the extra information one can deal with although Tarzan did not seem to have any limit. Also consider differences between 2-deck vs 6-deck. Also consider that side counting can be greatly improved with proper mental strategies and training. By the way, using letters is not my strategy.

Morbid curiosity???? What the hell is that? To me curiosity is a healthy thing. At least, it should be.