Automatic Shufflers

[Norm]

1. The casino would be bankrupted by AP players. It would be easier to beat than shuffle tracking.
2. The casino would lose its license, costing astounding amounts of money and have to deal with class action suits by the stockholders as well as the customers.
3. The company selling such devices would be banned from Nevada and most other jurisdictions for fraud. Seriously, how could it be kept secret that they are cheating devices as so many, many people would have to know?
4. How do you know how many players are at the table at any one time including those that leave altering the card sequences, which would completely change any shoe manipulation results?

All of that aside, it is the policy of this site to not allow accusations of criminality without damn good evidence. You are welcome to take casinos to task for overserving drunks, Selling John Patrick books, 6:5 blackjack and other disgusting, misleading rules, and other bad practices.

[Doubletrouble]

So your saying that automatic shufflers that track the cards inside, cannot be programmed to set the certain card arrangements within via software correct?

[Doubletrouble]

I am not accusing I am strictly asking a question. Now that you mentioned a casino losing their license. How many times have you seen the gaming commission stop a game and say that we are doing a random inspection please remove the cards from the shufflers so that we can inspect them? Just Saying and people jumping in and out dose not change the way the cards are sitting in the shuffler only very slightly.

[Secretariat]

1. The casino would be bankrupted by AP players. It would be easier to beat than shuffle tracking.
2. The casino would lose its license, costing astounding amounts of money and have to deal with class action suits by the stockholders as well as the customers.
3. The company selling such devices would be banned from Nevada and most other jurisdictions for fraud. Seriously, how could it be kept secret that they are cheating devices as so many, many people would have to know?
4. How do you know how many players are at the table at any one time including those that leave altering the card sequences, which would completely change any shoe manipulation results?

All of that aside, it is the policy of this site to not allow accusations of criminality without damn good evidence. You are welcome to take casinos to task for overserving drunks, Selling John Patrick books, 6:5 blackjack and other disgusting, misleading rules, and other bad practices.

1. Norm, far from me the idea of steering this towards cheating, fraud, criminality, witch hunting, and the hell with John Patrick. Anyway, my understanding of the law is that casinos may shuffle the cards any way they like as long as all the cards are in play. So, technically speaking, creating some bias would not be cheating if all cards are in play. I don’t know what the law says about auto-shufflers.
2. If I read between your lines, programming biases with auto shufflers is possible (we are in 2024 after all) but casinos don’t do it because of the reasons that you mentioned. OK, good.
3. You say that APs would kill casinos using biased decks. I can see that under certain conditions. But you also told me privately a while ago that using extreme biases with CV would cause players “to lose heavily”. My “meaningless” results with CV under those conditions are mostly that or just OK but I did not play thousands of “biased” hands.
4. Now, I would like to see what kind of SCORE I would get under extreme bias shuffles. Is there a way to do that kind of sims with CV Data?

[Norm]

1. I would say that introduction of bias, changing the odds of a game, would run afoul of several laws. In Nevada:

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts.
NRS 465.075 Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
NRS 465.080 Possession, use, sale or manufacture of counterfeit, unapproved or unlawful instruments or items; possession of certain unlawful devices or paraphernalia for manufacturing slugs.
NRS 465.083 Cheating.
NRS 465.085 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.
NRS 465.015.1.a1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine: The result of a game
NRS 465.075.2 Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.??It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that: Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
NRS 465.085.1 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction. It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.

2. Yes.
3. I don't remember the conversation. Extreme biases would be extremely obvious. Successful fraud is not normally extreme.
4. Well, you can certainly alter the shoe to whatever degree you wish. To create a bias where high cards are in one section and low in another, you would need to sim two sims using two alterations using the MRI feature to only examine different depth ranges.

[moo321]

So without being too technical what makes it impossible to program bias levels with real shufflers?

In blackjack, you can't cheat by stacking a deck without knowing the number of players.


So, the deck is stacked with 2 players to give the dealer a blackjack, and the player a 16. The order would be: 10, A, 6, 10. Two new players sit down at the table. Now, you have 2 players getting a ten as their first card with about a 15% edge, one player getting an ace with a 50% edge, and one player getting a 6 with about a 20% disadvantage. You went from a lock win for the house, to a 60% disadvantage.


You can cheat if you have a stacked deck and the dealer can deal seconds or bottoms. But you can't deal bottoms from a shuffle machine, and dealing seconds is basically impossible without illegally modifying the machine.


This is a good article on actual possibilities for casino cheating at blackjack, although the likelihood of this is most corporate casinos is pretty remote:


https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gamb...ngerous-shoes/

[Norm]

How many times have you seen the gaming commission stop a game and say that we are doing a random inspection please remove the cards from the shufflers so that we can inspect them?

There's a line in an old Woody Allen movie that states most murderers are never caught. Doesn't mean it's worth the risk.

people jumping in and out dose not change the way the cards are sitting in the shuffler only very slightly.

Completely changes the results in the example given in the OP.

[Secretariat]

1. I would say that introduction of bias, changing the odds of a game, would run afoul of several laws. In Nevada:

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts.
NRS 465.075 Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
NRS 465.080 Possession, use, sale or manufacture of counterfeit, unapproved or unlawful instruments or items; possession of certain unlawful devices or paraphernalia for manufacturing slugs.
NRS 465.083 Cheating.
NRS 465.085 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.
NRS 465.015.1.a1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine: The result of a game
NRS 465.075.2 Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.??It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that: Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
NRS 465.085.1 Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction. It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.

2. Yes.
3. I don't remember the conversation. Extreme biases would be extremely obvious. Successful fraud is not normally extreme.
4. Well, you can certainly alter the shoe to whatever degree you wish. To create a bias where high cards are in one section and low in another, you would need to sim two sims using two alterations using the MRI feature to only examine different depth ranges.

Thanks Norm. That's a clear answer and a very informative one. I'll try #4 some time.

[Doubletrouble]

Thanks Norm one more question If and I am saying If the cards were stacked in order in the shuffler. Lets say a couple of new players sit in it dose change the way the cards fall. But after that specific deal wont the rest of the cards that remain in the shuffler remain in the order they were placed? So the rest of the shoe might come out as 10/2 10/6 etc. or how ever they were in the shuffler. Meaning that the disturbance of the cards is only temporary.

[Secretariat]

In blackjack, you can't cheat by stacking a deck without knowing the number of players.
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gamb...ngerous-shoes/

Interesting article Moo. There's a trick I didn't know about.
I tend to mostly agree with your above statement. Years ago I did a home experiment, playing 5 shoes with the same order or the cards every time. The first shoe was heads up and was intentionally designed in such a way that the player, using basic strategy, would lose every single hand of the shoe. Then on shoe 2, two players, same order of cards, and shoe 3, three players, same order of cards, ect. Turns out that one of the shoes (can't remember which one), just killed the house and the other shoes were relatively average. So there's probably something like a near perfect number of players and a near deadly number of players for every deck composition but there's just no way to know it beforehand.

[Doubletrouble]

If and I am saying If the cards were stacked in order in the shuffler. Lets say a couple of new players sit in it dose change the way the cards fall. But after that specific deal wont the rest of the cards that remain in the shuffler remain in the order they were placed? So the rest of the shoe might play out as 10/2 10/6 etc. or how ever they were in the shuffler. Meaning that the disturbance of the cards is only temporary.

[Norm]

The temporary change does not make it legal. It only makes it unpredictable and therefore a stupid crime.

[Doubletrouble]

Thanks Norm I am not trying to argue with anyone. I'm really just very curious about the subject. Have a nice night my friend