Philosophy of Cover

[Archimedes]

I have a general question about the philosophy of using cover to play blackjack. I have not played in years, but when I did play, I tried to live by the advice of Ian Andersen and try to always stay in the good graces of the casino. The goal was to seem like an ordinary loser and not cause the house to take countermeasures against you, or worse yet back you off.

Nowadays, I am seeing videos on YouTube of players having a much more in-your-face attitude, even to the point of conjuring up some mantra "don't back yourself off", which seems to me to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It was my understanding that your longevity should be guarded carefully, and being backed off, or worse yet barred, means you didn't do your job right. Am I missing something? If I ever know that the dealer or the pit suspected me of counting, I wouldn't stick around at all. I would move on and come back on another shift. This is a major philosophical debate I think. It's cover for longevity vs optimal play for immediate EV.

Are there any people on this site that are currently playing black chips in Vegas regularly without any backoffs at all? I'd like to hear from you. And those people who play until you get barred and then leave and find a new casino and then repeat, I'd like to hear from you too, especially regarding how long you think it will last before you are completely recognizable everywhere. Thank you.

[moo321]

Am I missing something?

Yes. There are a LOT more casinos than there used to be. Not even sure how many anymore, but probably over 1000. When Beat the Dealer was written, there might have been 100.


So, just moving around a lot and playing aggressively is a much more viable strategy than it was before. It's not necessarily my philosophy, but it is a valid way to play. Lots of people do this, and they're getting the money.


There is no "optimal" way to play. We don't know your bankroll, skills, personality, whether you're on a team, etc. Some people just can't handle backoffs. It really hurts their feelings. Some people just can't read heat, or they're disagreeable, so they just get backed off more. Others want to play the comp game, for fun or to control expenses.


I'd play a 1% game at a small downtown casino a lot differently than I'd play a 10% game in high limit on the strip.

[LicenseToTilt]

I'm definitely a novice who plays small stakes (1-10 spread with $5-$15 units). When I first started, I was very concerned about attracting heat and getting noticed. Even though I play these smaller stakes, I am the biggest bettor at my table most of the time by a decent margin and usually I attract the pit's attention. Recently I was on a road trip and stopped in small gambling town and decided to play without fear of getting backed off. I used no cover plays whatsoever and managed to get about 20 hours of play in a 36 hour period at 2 different casinos. One casino sweated me pretty bad, having a few security personal standing behind me and the pit boss actually glared at me menacingly for a loooong time. He didn't even acknowledge when I smiled and waved at him hah. I never got my backoff. I was a little disappointed to be honest because I wanted to experience it.

This trip has greatly reduced my fear of heat and backoffs. I guess my "philosophy" at this point is to tread lightly at the places near my house (limited cover and try to play less than 6 hours) but while traveling, get the maximum EV I can and let the casino's deal with it how they see fit.

[Gramazeka]

I'm definitely a novice who plays small stakes (1-10 spread with $5-$15 units).

I'm sorry, but this is mental masturbation. How are you trying to win money?

[LicenseToTilt]

I'm sorry, but this is mental masturbation. How are you trying to win money?

Apology accepted. That's the amount that my bankroll can sustain. I am saving money every week and should be able to increase my betting soon but for the time being this is what I'm doing. Starting next week, I will be able to save $500 a week from my day job so I anticipate being able to increase it within a few months. Also I am still getting practice playing in real casinos as opposed to on CVBJ. Like I said, I am a novice.

[moo321]

That's the amount that my bankroll can sustain.

You don't quite understand betting correctly.


Most counters use a fixed spread, say, 1-20, and will chose to "max out" at a certain bet size. This is done for heat considerations. It's not a bankroll thing.


Running a sim, like in CVData software, you can calculate the optimal bet size for each count. Hint: you don't stop raising your bets at +5 or +6. So, to say that your bankroll calls for you to stop raising your bets at those counts is incorrect. If the count is +20, you should be betting more than 10 units. A lot more.


This is actually how most red chip counters should play on most games.

[Archimedes]

LicenseToTilt your story about not getting backed off despite what seems to be clear knowledge on their part that you were doing something is enlightening. Maybe it is just because of the low stakes. Were you winning at the time? I can relate to how even red chips can get heat, because years ago when I used to play a similar spread to yours in Reno I was typically the biggest player at the table too, making bets of 10-100 or so. It's all relative. There are tables in Vegas where the minimum is $500.

[LicenseToTilt]

You don't quite understand betting correctly.


Most counters use a fixed spread, say, 1-20, and will chose to "max out" at a certain bet size. This is done for heat considerations. It's not a bankroll thing.


Running a sim, like in CVData software, you can calulcate the optimal bet size for each count. Hint: you don't stop raising your bets at +5 or +6. So, to say that your bankroll calls for you to stop raising your bets at those counts is incorrect. If the count is +20, you should be betting more than 10 units. A lot more.


This is actually how most red chip counters should play on most games.

Thank you for explaining that. I admit that I have a long way to go in my understanding of how to be a proper AP. Insights like this are invaluable. The spread I use is actually straight off CVCX. I’ll be getting into CVData soon but I haven’t bought it yet.

[LicenseToTilt]

LicenseToTilt your story about not getting backed off despite what seems to be clear knowledge on their part that you were doing something is enlightening. Maybe it is just because of the low stakes. Were you winning at the time? I can relate to how even red chips can get heat, because years ago when I used to play a similar spread to yours in Reno I was typically the biggest player at the table too, making bets of 10-100 or so. It's all relative. There are tables in Vegas where the minimum is $500.

Yeah I suppose it’s easy to be a big fish in a tiny pond. You are correct about something. I was actually in the midst of the worst downturn I have seen so far. I was down about 2k. That money has been recouped but I wonder if they just thought I was bad counter. No matter what they thought about my playing, they were watching me like crazy. Maybe they were waiting to see if I started winning suddenly so they could kick me out. Well that time never came haha. It was certainly the most heat I ever felt. On a brighter note, I had my best session ever today. I profited $1000 in like 3 hours!