How do joint bankrolls work?

[LicenseToTilt]

Hey all,

I’m back with another newbie question. How does it work when a group of counters combine their bankrolls? Clearly any winnings would be divided amongst the group but how is it divvied up? If one person provides 50% of the total and 2 more have 25% each, does that mean that the first player takes 50% of all profit? Also what means do people have to build trust in their team that nobody is taking a “secret cut” of their winnings before reporting back to the group? Any information is greatly appreciated.

-LTT

[Intermediate]

Good question/topic. I don’t think you’ll get much info posted here given this is a public forum. You might find some info on the Teams forum here but you’ll need a subscription to access it.

[DSchles]

Hey all,

I’m back with another newbie question. How does it work when a group of counters combine their bankrolls? Clearly any winnings would be divided amongst the group but how is it divvied up? If one person provides 50% of the total and 2 more have 25% each, does that mean that the first player takes 50% of all profit? Also what means do people have to build trust in their team that nobody is taking a “secret cut” of their winnings before reporting back to the group? Any information is greatly appreciated.

-LTT

Do you have BJA3? There's an entire chapter on team play that explains all of this.

Don

[moo321]

There is no one answer. For a smaller bank, half to players based on time played and half to investors based on capital contributed is pretty common. For a large team, where there is a management team that is gathering investors, doing legal compliance, accounting, training players, etc. management gets anywhere from 10-50%. In my experience, 10% is too low to keep management engaged, and 50% is too high to keep players playing.

There isn't any well established way to ensure people aren't stealing. This is one of the biggest problems with teams. Worries about stealing are often a bigger problem than actual stealing. Stealing and dishonesty tend to be bigger problem with poker players than blackjack players. Poker attracts more degenerates, and blackjack gets more nerds. Everyone gets suspicious when the bank is losing.

There are lots of industries that deal with cash transactions and have developed loss prevention strategies. You can study these and get ideas.

One benefit of the big player approach is that a spotter can see if the BP is reporting a different amount than the correct one.

[Lester]

Returning to counting again; got the new count, trying to shake the cobwebs out of my brain. Of course, I know to read BJA3 cover to cover twice before I hit the tables. Someone on this forum told me to do that back in 2011 after I asked a newbie question.

[chipsgalore]

I suggest the book "Blackjack Blueprint". There is an entire chapter on it.

[DSchles]

I suggest the book "Blackjack Blueprint". There is an entire chapter on it.

Excellent, oft-forgotten BJ work. Rick has managed and played on many highly regarded teams. His knowledge of this subject matter is second to none.

Don

[LicenseToTilt]

Do you have BJA3? There's an entire chapter on team play that explains all of this.

Don

Not yet Don but I will get it soon! Maybe I’ll buy it for myself for Christmas.

[LicenseToTilt]

There is no one answer. For a smaller bank, half to players based on time played and half to investors based on capital contributed is pretty common. For a large team, where there is a management team that is gathering investors, doing legal compliance, accounting, training players, etc. management gets anywhere from 10-50%. In my experience, 10% is too low to keep management engaged, and 50% is too high to keep players playing.

There isn't any well established way to ensure people aren't stealing. This is one of the biggest problems with teams. Worries about stealing are often a bigger problem than actual stealing. Stealing and dishonesty tend to be bigger problem with poker players than blackjack players. Poker attracts more degenerates, and blackjack gets more nerds. Everyone gets suspicious when the bank is losing.

Very interesting stuff. It’s funny because I always thought of BJ players (non AP) as the degenerates and poker players as typically more well rounded and thoughtful. But now that I’m in the world of APs I can see that your average poker player isn’t as far ahead of the BJ players as I’ve thought.

I don’t know if I could ever give management 50%. I feel like if my face was going up on the casino databases as a high stakes counter, I better be using the time efficiently and not selling it to other people. That being said I’ve never even met another counter so my opinions lack perspective.

[chipsgalore]

Not yet Don but I will get it soon! Maybe I’ll buy it for myself for Christmas.

BJA3 is a profession-defining work that belongs as the cornerstone of any advanced card counter's library. I have settled many, many an argument when referencing this book (some even in my favor!). If you are new to counting, read it now and then come back in a year and read it again.

[Intermediate]

I don’t know if I could ever give management 50%. I feel like if my face was going up on the casino databases as a high stakes counter, I better be using the time efficiently and not selling it to other people. That being said I’ve never even met another counter so my opinions lack perspective.

Managing a team can be a lot of work, and if the team is large, the record keeping and player management can take a ton of time, and can be a headache. I feel the management role deserves a little extra, depending on the team size and playing volume. Being part of a team can be a great way to grow your Bankroll, so depending on where you are in your career progression, joining a team and paying a bit for the management role can be well worth it.

[moo321]

I don’t know if I could ever give management 50%.

If James Grosjean was running the team, I'd let him have 60%. Good management is worth it. And bad management can overcome many other advantages. This is true in almost any human endeavor.