Ace 5 Count clarification and Multiple counters at single table. Visible or Invisble?

[antonical]

Player 1 would play comp mins i.e. $25 min bet unit doubling upto the maximum bet size we have determined before playing. e.g If the min bet was $25 and the max bet was $50 then that would be a 1-2 spread triggered at >=+2 . If we decided that the max bet was $200 and we are doubling our bet after each successive +2 count or higher i.e Bet size would be $200 if the count were +4 or a 1-8 spread.

The questions are really about finding a robust/simple/efficient strategy that my wife can use when playing to minimise or flip the HE and maximise her enjoyment and comps. She does not want the stress etc. that can come with more advanced full count strategies. The Ace 5 seemed like it could fit the bill with little effort and risk if I have understood it correctly (definitely not a given!)

My wife's enjoyment is worth a lot

I looked at the casino Verite software but could not work out how to program the Ace 5 count to simulate expectation HE bankroll ROR etc.


What would the Risk of Ruin and Bankroll requirements be assuming $5 units and $25 units for player 1?

Is the Ace 5 the simplest and best HE minimisation strategy?

What is the bet correlation (raising of bets etc.) between two players playing the same table with the following assumptions: i.e. are we looking at synchronised bet changes?

Player 1 Ace 5 Count Basic Strategy + http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/18/ variations for 3 or more cards
Player 2 Hi - Lo or KO Pref

Game is 4 Decks 70-80% Pen S17 DOA DAS RSA ENHC (all bets lost) No Insurance No Surrender Even money offered on Player BJ vs Dealer A or 10

Any help appreciated.

Cheers
Anton

[Frostbyte]

Player 1 would play comp mins i.e. $25 min bet unit doubling upto the maximum bet size we have determined before playing. e.g If the min bet was $25 and the max bet was $50 then that would be a 1-2 spread triggered at >=+2 . If we decided that the max bet was $200 and we are doubling our bet after each successive +2 count or higher i.e Bet size would be $200 if the count were +4 or a 1-8 spread.

The questions are really about finding a robust/simple/efficient strategy that my wife can use when playing to minimise or flip the HE and maximise her enjoyment and comps. She does not want the stress etc. that can come with more advanced full count strategies. The Ace 5 seemed like it could fit the bill with little effort and risk if I have understood it correctly (definitely not a given!)

My wife's enjoyment is worth a lot

I looked at the casino Verite software but could not work out how to program the Ace 5 count to simulate expectation HE bankroll ROR etc.


What would the Risk of Ruin and Bankroll requirements be assuming $5 units and $25 units for player 1?

Is the Ace 5 the simplest and best HE minimisation strategy?

What is the bet correlation (raising of bets etc.) between two players playing the same table with the following assumptions: i.e. are we looking at synchronised bet changes?

Player 1 Ace 5 Count Basic Strategy + http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/18/ variations for 3 or more cards
Player 2 Hi - Lo or KO Pref

Game is 4 Decks 70-80% Pen S17 DOA DAS RSA ENHC (all bets lost) No Insurance No Surrender Even money offered on Player BJ vs Dealer A or 10

Any help appreciated.

Cheers
Anton

Ace-Five only has a betting correlation of .54. This is not powerful enough to be worth risking any money on, and your ROR is significantly increased by the fact that in order to overcome the crappy betting correlation you need to spread like a maniac (one source recommends 1-32 or higher). Also it's useless for insurance and has a playing efficiency of .05, so you can't add any value over basic strategy beyond the betting variations.

Running count K-O and Red-7 aren't hard and will serve you much better.

Having said that, the game you describe with no insurance, no surrender and all bets lost on dealer BJ is unplayable to a counter and has a house edge on par with baccarat.

[antonical]

FrostByte,

Thanks for the comments. The game we play in the majority of UK Casinos has a HE of approx. 0.43674% source http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/ 4 Decks S17 DAS DOA RSA ENHC NS NI Even Money option on Dealer A or 10 against BJ.

A little confused about your comments about the game being unplayable, we do very well with Hi-Lo and KO-Pref

As you can see from my questions the objective is not to make money from the A 5 (would be nice) but rather to not lose money! The Analysis that Norman did for Mike Shackelford http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/17/ seemed to suggest a player advantage of 0.3% over a 6 deck game so slightly worse than our 4 deck game, thereby achieving our objective of potentially Eradicating the HE. The devil is always in the detail. Do you have any analysis for your comments?

The Paul L. Schaffer version of the Ace 5 make some minor changes to basic strategy (15v10, 16v9, 16v10 3Cards, A2v5, A4v4,) and overall playing strategy and uses a max spread of 1-4 units (1-8 units would be no problem for us higher that 1-12 could be an issue) to improve the efficiency. Bank roll should not be an issue (however I am struggling to find any detailed analysis for BR and ROR) she generally has 400 units as her BR. Her play has been an overhead (she plays perfect BS stands on 16v10 3+cards) and as you would expect is up and down but down long term on her action due to the HE. Clearly if we can eradicate that loss and not have to make too many mods to her play that would be great.

So our questions still stand:

What would the Risk of Ruin and Bankroll requirements be assuming $5 units and $25 units for player 1?

Is the Ace 5 the simplest and best HE minimisation/eradication strategy?

Any further help appreciated as it seems we are either misinterpreting whats our there about the A5 we have read everything we can find and played on our practice table to reasonable effect. It seems that because everyone is focused on squeezing the last drop of advantage out of counting and playing strategies (and we are very thankful for that), any strategy that seeks to break even or just squeeze over the line in the players favour has not had any attention. If the A 5 has merit in these circumstances it should be the most valuable CC strategy for the majority of the BJ playing world (the ones that will never learn any kind of full CC) and play for fun.

Any math experts please feel free to chip in.

Very best regards
Anton

[Nyne]

I don't understand why your wife can't just take advantage of your counting efforts by correlating her bets with yours. It's less effort for her and will give her more EV. You don't have to match bets exactly. You could even use some of the strategies discussed in NT's book to disguise your play somewhat.

[antonical]

Nyne,

It may be that we are never at the same table! It maybe that one of the team is also at her table. So the challenge on the above questions is still on as we seek to understand the 'detail'. The question on bet correlation is really about us understanding what the additional risk of exposure is if one of us is playing at the same table with full a count 'hot shoe'.

Many thanks for reading our post and taking the time to reply.

Anton

[antonical]

FrostByte,

Thanks for the comments. The game we play in the majority of UK Casinos has a HE of approx. 0.43674% source http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/ 4 Decks S17 DAS DOA RSA ENHC NS NI Even Money option on Dealer A or 10 against BJ.

A little confused about your comments about the game being unplayable, we do very well with Hi-Lo and KO-Pref

As you can see from my questions the objective is not to make money from the A 5 (would be nice) but rather to not lose money! The Analysis that Norman did for Mike Shackelford http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/17/ seemed to suggest a player advantage of 0.3% over a 6 deck game so slightly worse than our 4 deck game, thereby achieving our objective of potentially Eradicating the HE. The devil is always in the detail. Do you have any analysis for your comments?

The Paul L. Schaffer version of the Ace 5 make some minor changes to basic strategy (15v10, 16v9, 16v10 3Cards, A2v5, A4v4,) and overall playing strategy and uses a max spread of 1-4 units (1-8 units would be no problem for us higher that 1-12 could be an issue) to improve the efficiency. Bank roll should not be an issue (however I am struggling to find any detailed analysis for BR and ROR) she generally has 400 units as her BR. Her play has been an overhead (she plays perfect BS stands on 16v10 3+cards) and as you would expect is up and down but down long term on her action due to the HE. Clearly if we can eradicate that loss and not have to make too many mods to her play that would be great.

So our questions still stand:

What would the Risk of Ruin and Bankroll requirements be assuming $5 units and $25 units for player 1?

Is the Ace 5 the simplest and best HE minimisation/eradication strategy?

Any further help appreciated as it seems we are either misinterpreting whats our there about the A5 we have read everything we can find and played on our practice table to reasonable effect. It seems that because everyone is focused on squeezing the last drop of advantage out of counting and playing strategies (and we are very thankful for that), any strategy that seeks to break even or just squeeze over the line in the players favour has not had any attention. If the A 5 has merit in these circumstances it should be the most valuable CC strategy for the majority of the BJ playing world (the ones that will never learn any kind of full CC) and play for fun.

Any math experts please feel free to chip in.

Very best regards
Anton

Anyone?

Cheers
Anton