Bitcoin/Crypto Yay or Nay

[Archvaldor]

I am wary of participating in a thread where you get spectacularly ignorant comments from pro and anti-crypto people.

The actual value of crypto is this:

You can trade it with another person anywhere in the world, without an intermediary. That makes it a huge deal.

That's all that really matters and why it continues to go from strength to strength.

What the US and UK, European and other governments think about it does not matter. It directly threatens the interests of power there so of course they don't like it. In civilized countries it is just a form of gambling.

The interesting developments are in developing countries and in places like Ukraine where it is becoming an actual currency, because it is less volatile and more accessible than the alternatives. People in western countries think the universe revolves around them so they don't understand any of this.

Why should you hold it? It is a form of insurance against money printing by your government.A lot of the increase in value in crypto is simply due to all the quantitative easing making other currency worthless.

To be fair the pro crypto people in the west are mostly speculators trying to hype it to make a fast buck.

[Norm]

Some of the negatives:

-There are continuing stories of massive fraud, security issues, and poor management costing billions.
-It can be vastly more volatile if you do not live in a war zone.
-It is heavily used by ransomware hackers.
-It requires vast amounts of electricity to mine.
-Blockchain is also an inherently inefficient method of data handling and will have difficulty expanding to very large usage.
-Unlike checks, wires, credit cards, even cashier's checks, crypto transactions cannot be reversed in case of fraud.

One neat positive: Many scammers, hired killers, drug dealers, and weapon dealers have been jailed because they fell for the claim crypto-transactions are not traceable.

[Archvaldor]

Some of the negatives:

-There are continuing stories of massive fraud, security issues, and poor management costing billions.

People always go on about that. Every crypto scam ever is <1% of scams involving mobile phones. No one describes telephones as dangerous and untrustworthy tech.

[Norm]

I am not talking about the use of crypto to make a payment to a scammer. I am talking about massive failures and losses with the currency itself. These losses can hit folks for simply owning crypto; not falling for some scam on their phone.

[Archvaldor]

I am not talking about the use of crypto to make a payment to a scammer. I am talking about massive failures and losses with the currency itself. These losses can hit folks for simply owning crypto; not falling for some scam on their phone.

I am not sure what you think is different about crypto from fiat currency or other store of value. Crypto can be stolen or you can defraud people with it: as with fiat currency.

[Norm]

I m not talking about buying something with it, although unlike crypto you can reverse a credit card charge. Most people don't lose if their bank fails, due to the FDIC. And funds in banks don't suddenly disappear. I've had credit card fraud. But, you get the money back. Look at Sam Bankman-Fried alone. Taking billions of dollars in customer' funds. Of course he lost $16 billion in one day. ($32 billion if you count what he lost but didn't have.) That's just one of many nightmares that have hit crypto holders. Terra USD and LUNA $40 billion in investor losses. Genesis Global Capital bankrupted with 100,000 creditors. Under IRS rules, many of these losses cannot even be deducted.

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument. You listed some positives -- so I listed some negatives.

[Gramazeka]

I am the account owner on Binance. Any transfer of usdt - commission 1$. Usdt is not subject to inflation against the dollar.
3 factor identification for security, iPhone that can't be hacked (IOS).
It's perfect.

[Norm]

In 2021, Binance was put under investigation by both the United States Department of Justice and Internal Revenue Service on allegations of money laundering and tax offenses. The UK's Financial Conduct Authority ordered Binance to stop all regulated activity in the United Kingdom in June 2021. That same year, Binance shared client data, including names and addresses, with the Russian government.

In June, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission sued crypto exchange Binance, the operating company for Binance.US and Binance founder and CEO on allegations of violating federal securities laws.

Also BAM Trading – the operating company for Binance.US – and Binance itself, including failure to register as a clearing agency, failure to register as a broker and failure to register as an exchange. The SEC also alleged that Binance allowed for commingling of customer funds, that CZ was "secretly" controlling Binance.US and that a CZ-owned and operated entity was inflating Binance.US's trading volume.

Binance and its poor financial controls meant that customer funds were diverted, including potentially for personal uses, the suit said. Merit Peak Limited, a market maker previously tied to Zhao, had access to "billions of U.S. dollars of customer funds," while Sigma Chain, another CZ-controlled entity, received nearly $200 million from BAM Trading and a BAM Trading custody account, the SEC alleged. CZ himself allegedly "personally received $62.5 million from one of the Binance bank accounts" between October 2022 and January 2023.

Two days ago, the SEC filed a sealed motion in its case against Binance.

[Gramazeka]

Binance is 1,000 times less likely to go bankrupt than the average bank.

[Norm]

Well, my bank was founded in 1812 and hasn't gone under yet. Also charges $0 to wire from my account to most bank accounts in the world and charges no transaction fee for withdrawals from most every ATM in the world (they also pay for the other bank's fee) with no foreign exchange fee. No monthly fees, but gives me Amazon Prime for free. Think Ill stick with it.

[Gramazeka]

JPMorgan Chase ?

[Norm]

Nah, don't like Jamie Diamon. His construction is four blocks away and they keep blocking the traffic. Although, I do have a small Chase account.

[Archvaldor]

I m not talking about buying something with it, although unlike crypto you can reverse a credit card charge. Most people don't lose if their bank fails, due to the FDIC. And funds in banks don't suddenly disappear. I've had credit card fraud. But, you get the money back. Look at Sam Bankman-Fried alone. Taking billions of dollars in customer' funds. Of course he lost $16 billion in one day. ($32 billion if you count what he lost but didn't have.) That's just one of many nightmares that have hit crypto holders. Terra USD and LUNA $40 billion in investor losses. Genesis Global Capital bankrupted with 100,000 creditors. Under IRS rules, many of these losses cannot even be deducted.

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument. You listed some positives -- so I listed some negatives.

Hmmm perhaps. Sovereign states do provide some protection against loss-assuming they are able to do so which isn't always the case. But then regulation severely restricts the flow of capital in many ways and cuts large numbers of people out of the financial system. As you can probably tell I'm much more interested in the latter than the former.