precedence of split vs index decision

[Jamie]

When using the basic strategy charts and the I18 indexes, what takes precedence on the pairs that map to the indexes, the index play or the pair basic strategy play.

For example on a S17 game:
* 16 vs 10 should surrender if possible, otherwise hit. However if the TC >= 0 then stand.
* 88 vs 10 should surrender if possible, otherwise split.

Does the TC > 0 stand index override the split decision?

[Norm]

If you are using basic strategy charts, you are using basic strategy. No indices.

[Jamie]

ok, the question is agnostic to the underlying chart, I was using the basic strategy chart as an example. The question still stands though, do the I18 indexes take precedence over the split decisions or do they just apply to the non pair hands?

[Norm]

88vT is not a part of the Ill18 and therefore is not affected when using the 18.

[Jamie]

ok, thanks. so it should not be treated as a 16 for the purpose of the I18 index?

[Ole]

Splitting is the superior play for 8,8vT; it is better than surrender or standing.
The I18 doesn't include the "8,8" when it refers to the "16vT stand @ 0," unless you were trying to split beyond the regulated limit of SP3 for that table and could split no more. Then you'd stand at 0.
If you chose to define all the indices for 8,8vT, then the surrender index is well above 0, and you wouldn't stop splitting until your TC was much much more above 0.

The best numbers for such are in Don Schlesinger's new book.

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[BJGenius007]

When using the basic strategy charts and the I18 indexes, what takes precedence on the pairs that map to the indexes, the index play or the pair basic strategy play.

For example on a S17 game:
* 16 vs 10 should surrender if possible, otherwise hit. However if the TC >= 0 then stand.
* 88 vs 10 should surrender if possible, otherwise split.

Does the TC > 0 stand index override the split decision?

I know what you mean. You want to know the procedure on index plays, especially regarding 16 v 10 and 88 v 10.

First, 88 v 10 is a special case of 16 v 10. The two have the different index play. The general rule for applying different indexes, are surrender, pair split, doubling and Stand/Hit. So for 88 v 10, you consider surrender first, the index is 1. If the index is 1 or higher then you surrender your 88 v 10. If the index is lower than 1, then check the next step. Then the next step of the sequence to check is if you split or not. For 88 v 10, it is always split. So you split.

Now for two card 16 v 10, the sequence is still surrender (first step), pair split, doubling and stand/hit. Since pair split and doubling do not apply on this hand, the sequence is only surrender, then stand/hit. First check if TC is higher than -2.5 (Zen). If TC is higher than or equal to -2.5, then you surrender hand.

For multiple cards 16 v 10, since you cannot surrender after the third card, you skip to the fourth step of the sequence, directly check if you should stand or hit. The threshold is 0 here. If TC is higher than or equal to 0, you stand. If TC is lower than 0, you hit.

In basic, the sequence of index play is always check the index on Surrender > Pair split > Doubling > Stand/Hit.

[Ole]

The best numbers for such are in Don's new book.
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That is Don Schlesinger and Dave Brolley's new book,
The Hi-Lo Card-Counting System: A Complete Guide to Index Play.

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[BJGenius007]

ok, thanks. so it should not be treated as a 16 for the purpose of the I18 index?

Nope. 88 v 10 and 16 v 10 are two different cases. You have to apply different index plays. Also 88 v 10 is not in I18.

[Jamie]

Got it. Thanks all.

[Jack Jackson]

In case you dont know 88 vs X is a reverse index.. A couple of other hand/indexes that may contradict themselves are 66v2 and 44v6..I dont remember exactly but i think these plays came down to whether DAS was allowed or not..

[Norm]

Frankly, I always thought reverse indices are error prone and not worth using.

[aceside]

I’m not sure the exact definition of “reverse index”, but if the term defines a situation in which a player lowers the supposedly negative EV, then all these split 88v8, 88v9, 88v10, and 88vA indices are reverse indices.