Taking neutral card into account

[LoKee]

Does anybody else use neutral cards as a indicator of a strong high or low count. I'm thinking when I see a bunch of neutrals come out not actually counting them then I know if the tc is more dependable. Like say the rc is +5 and 6 decks are left so tc is .8 but I know many neutrals have came out, I started raising my bet a little. Am I fooling myself or am I onto something ? Are there any books that talk about this ? I got the idea after reading blackjack blueprint where he talks about hand composition and table composition. So far it seems to be working out ok.

[Norm]

That's why we use a true count.

[LoKee]

OK. Much respect to you and all I've learned from

[Gramazeka]

I use modified Hi Lo + 7+ 9.

7= + 0.5.
9 = -0.5.
It’s EBJ 2 count= RPC. Indexes = Hi Lo.

[bjanalyst]

I use modified Hi Lo + 7+ 9.

7= + 0.5.
9 = -0.5.
It’s EBJ 2 count= RPC. Indexes = Hi Lo.

For the HL player who wants to keep only one simple side plus/minus level one side count to help with the HL I recommended using the 7m9c side count with HL. So here you are taking advantage of information in two of the neutral cards not counted in the HL. It is easier to keep two level one counts, HL with a 7m9c side count (with chips to help keep 7m9c) than the level 2 EBJ2.

I had talked about HL w 7m9c in a previous thread that I posted just a few days ago and, in that post, I explained how easy it is to keep the 7m9c with chips. Update the HL as soon as cards are played and then update 7m9c side count after all cards are on the table and scan for sevens and nine seen and calculate 7m9seen and use 7m9seen to update the 7m9c chip stack from the previous round. If 7m9c > 0 the 7m9c chip stack is to the right of your betting chips and if 7m9c < 0 the 7m9c chips stack is to the left of your betting chips.

Gronbog had done sims on HL with 7m9c
Six deck, five decks dealt, Late Surrender, back counted, 1-8 spread as follows:

HiLo Full Indices ...........88.18
HiLo+7m9c-b-p top 6.....95.66
HiOpt II + ASC.............102.08

HiLo+7m9c-b-p top 6.....means 7m9c was used for b = betting and p = playing top 6.

So here is how 7m9c is used with HL:

HL + k*(7m9c): (dr = decks remaining)

1. brc = betting running count = HL + (1/2)*(7m9c) = EBJ2...… k = (1/2)
2. Stand on hard 14 v T if HL + 3*(7m9c) >= 10*dr…............... k = 3
3. Surrender hard 14 v 9 if HL + 2*(7m9c) >= 6*dr…............... k = 2
4. Surrender hard 14 v T if HL + 2*(7m9c) >= 3*dr…............... k = 2
5. Surrender hard 14 v A if HL + 2*(7m9c) >= 6*dr…............... k = 2
6. Surrender hard 13 v T if HL + 2*(7m9c) >= 8*dr…............... k = 2
7. Surrender 8,8 v T DAS if HL + 2*(7m9c) >= 2*dr..................k = 2
8. All other plays use stand alone HL….................................... k = 0

And here are the advantages of using HL with 7m9c over EBJ2:

By varying "k" you have various derived counts and you chose the count (value of "k") that is best for each situation.
If k = 0 then HL + k*(7m9c) = HL
if k = (1/2) then HL + k*(7m9c) = HL + (1/2)*(7m9c) which is EBJ2 which is used for betting.
if k = 2 then HL + k*(7m9c) = HL + 2*(7m9c) which is a count which is used for the 5 LS plays in the top 6 plays
if k = 3 then HL + k*(7m9c) = HL + 3*(7m9c) which is a count which is used for the standing on hard 14 v T.
So HL w 7m9c gives the player four count choices and he selects the choice best for each situation.
EBJ2 is a level 2 count with no side counts and so all the tag values are fixed for each situation.
EBJ2 gives no choices of various counts for various situations. EBJ2 must be used for ALL situations.
EJB2 = HL + (1/2)*(7m9c) which is the betting running count. So EJB2 is the HL w 7m9c for betting.
But k = (1/2) only for betting. For most situations, k = 0 which is HL and k = 2 and k = 3 for situations described above.
For example, for insurance, k = 0 in HL + k*(7m9c). If k has any value other than zero it give a count that hurts insurance.
With EBJ2 you are forced to use k = (1/2) for all situations.
So in the insurance situation mention above you have a count that gives a worse insurance decision than HL.

[Gramazeka]

{EBJ2 gives no choices of various counts for various situations. EBJ2 must be used for ALL situations.} - Believe me, this is more than enough to strengthen a simple Hi Lo count than the rubbish that you fill your head with and others. If you are interested in such research, I would recommend you to study the posts of user BRH on the blackjack forums. It's really good quality material. You publish unnecessary garbage that only clogs your head.

[bjanalyst]

{EBJ2 gives no choices of various counts for various situations. EBJ2 must be used for ALL situations.} - Believe me, this is more than enough to strengthen a simple Hi Lo count than the rubbish that you fill your head with and others. If you are interested in such research, I would recommend you to study the posts of user BRH on the blackjack forums. It's really good quality material. You publish unnecessary garbage that only clogs your head.

I am glad you like 7m9c as a side count to HL.

If you decided to use 7m9c with the HL please post on this forum your experience in using 7m9c with the HL. I think other users would like your feedback and experience with HL with 7m9c.

I found this You Tube video dealing two decks to the last card
What's the Count? Double Deck Blackjack Countdown #1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kf91Qy62zo&t=5s

The narrator counts the two decks using the HL. If you get some poker chips, you can also practice keeping the 7m9c with the HL using the poker chips for the 7m9c chip stack. Since the entire two decks is dealt, you can also check that bot the 7m9c and HL are zero at the end to confirm that you counted both HL and 7m9c correctly.

And here is another You Tube video wherfe two decksc are dealt to the end and the narrator is counting down the two decks with the HL. So again you can practice the 7m9c with poker chips and this video to make sure you are counting both the HL and 7m9c correctly as you must get zero at the end of the two decks for both counts.

Blackjack ~ $70,000 buyin ???????????? CRAZY HIGH-ROLLER splits10's !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqRwwe-XcV0

I hope that using these two videos will help you with the 7m9c. Also, you may try to practice keeping the 7m9c in your head without the use of chips, so you keep both HL and 7m9c in your head. But use chips first until you are certain you can keep 7m9c accurately in your head or simply always use chips for 7m9c to minimize any chance of making errors in 7m9c.

I listened to what the readers of blackjack forum wanted. They want to keep the HL and not switch to KO. They wanted a very, very simple way to improve the HL without a lot of work.

Any HL counter can understand the 7m9c count. That is why I avoided AA78mTc and other HL side counts I had analyzed. Yes they work fine and I have no problem using them but other readers do have massive problems using these side counts.

I personally use KO as my primary count with my TCRC (Table of Critical Running Counts) along with three side counts, but I will not even go into this as it will just confuse and further frustrate blackjack forum readers as they will not be able to follow what I am doing, get pissed off, start going crazy and start flinging insults at me.

I also have never been able to convince any HL user to switch to KO.

Thus, I had two criteria dictated by the readers of blackjack forum
1. The primacy count must be HL --- no KO with a TCRC.
2. Any side count to HL must be as simple as possible and easy to understand and thus must be a level one count which counts only two ranks.

Thus, I decided to keep it as simple as possible and make a simple side count to add to the HL that any HL user can understand and use and that is why I choose 7m9c. Neither the 7 nor the 9 are counted in the HL so the 7m9c is totally independent of the HL. Also, since no ranks overlap these two counts, there is less chance of any errors in counting either HL or 7m9c since they count different ranks. Finally, the 7m9c is a very powerful side count to the HL as you are making use of information totally ignored in the HL which ignored the 7's, 8's and 9's - there is valuable information there which is being ignored in the HL.

And that is why I asked Gronbog a few years ago to do sims on HL with 7m9c which he generously agreed to do. I would like to thank Gronbog again for his sims and the work he did. I am sure all blackjack forum readers appreciate all of Gronbog's work as well.

My initial goal was to beat the HO2 w ASC using the HL with 7m9c. But I found out that using only one simple side count with HL you cannot beat HO2 w ASC. You need two side counts to beat the HO2 w ASC.

But that is OK. Using 7m9c you get, as I showed earlier, over 50% of the gain that you would get if you used the extremely complicated HO2 w ASC. If HO2 w ASC is used you would have to learn an entire new count system which is a difficult level two count, an entire new set of indices, and keep a side count of Aces which is only an estimate as you need to estimate decks played to estimate ASC. And then the Aces played is always increase. Contrast that with 7m9c which is a balanced, level one, plus/minus side count which counts only two ranks, is exact and not approximate as 7m9c does not require estimating any decks played and finally 7m9c fluctuates around its mean of zero as opposed to an ASC where you have an ever increasing Aces played that needs to be tracked.

With 7m9c side count with HL there is no new count system to learn, you keep the HL, and no new indices to learn other than the top 6 7m9c plays. You get the most bang to the HL for the least amount of work and mental energy.

And you can use a 7m9c chip stack to keep the 7m9c or if you become proficient enough you may be able to keep both the 7m9c and HL in your head - you are keeping two small integers in your head. Just remember to update HL on the fly as cards are played and update 7m9c after all cards are on the table and scan for 7's and 9's seen on the able and then update 7m9c. And that is all there is to it. The shoe game is very, very slow and there is PLENTY of time to update 7m9c.

If you decide to keep 7m9c in your head with the HL, I would initially keep 7m9c chips stack and the 7m9c mentally as well to make sure you are keeping the 7m9c correctly. Make sure you are able to keep 7m9c in your head 100% accurate before abandoning the 7m9c chips stack.

But I think one small stack of chips, which is infrequently updated since there are only two ranks you are updating, can easily be hidden among your betting chips from the casino as if you are playing with your chips as many players do. Just be discrete and stealthy with the 7m9c chip stack.

Also using the top 6 7m9c plays you also have some cover play. The casino uses the HL to track your play and pay special attention to your play when you have large bets out.

Some examples of camouflage play that look like mistakes to the casinos who are tracking you with the HL but are actually the correct play to do if 7m9c is used:

1. With 7m9c you are sometimes standing on hard 14 v T which Wong does not even have any indices to stand on hard 14 v T. Wong suggests the HL player always hit hard 14.

2. With 7m9c you may sometimes be hitting instead of surrendering hard 14 v T even with the HL true count is large, if 7m9c is negative enough. The casino using the HL would see a large HL true count and see you hitting hard 14 v T instead of surrendering.

3. With 7m9c you may be surrendering hard 13 v T with a relatively low HL true count of say 4 if 7m9c is large enough. So, your maximum bet is out, and you are surrendering hard 13 v T with tc(HL) = 4 when the casino knows that you need a tc(HL) >= 8 to surrender hard 13 v T if you are using the stand-alone HL. If 7m9c is positive enough, you may even be surrendering hard 13 v T with tc(HL) = 2 or 3 where a medium size bet it out and so definitely looks like a mistake to the casino tracking your play with the HL.

And I am sure there are many other situations that you can come up with using the top 6 that would be good camouflage plays. To the casino using the HL to track your play, it looks like a mistake, but it is actually the correct play when 7m9c is taken into account.

There are also some more 7m9c strategy changes to the HL that I have not listed here that would also give cover play. But I listed only the top 6 and Gronbog sims were based on betting with 7m9c and the top 6 strategy changes. The top 6 7m9c strategy changes gives most of the gain from using 7m9c.

Thanks for suggesting BRH. I am always interested in information on blackjack.

I will do a search on BRH on blackjack forum.

If you have any particular BRH posts that you think are particularly interesting or important, please reply to this with links to those posts.

Also do not forget to post your experience using 7m9c with HL if you decide to use HL with 7m9c. I am sure blackjack forum readers would like to know your experience.

[LoKee]

Thanks for the responses.

[bjanalyst]

Thanks for the responses.

You are very welcome. I hope that blackjack forum users find the 7m9c as a side count to HL helpful and easy to keep.

I concentrated on making something very easy to use and understand for the HL users and I think the 7m9c is the simplest and easiest side count to learn and use. Also the top 6 strategy changes are intuitive and make logical sense as well.

Use the two You Tube links I gave where a two-deck game was dealt to the end and grab some poker chips to keep 7m9c and keep HL and 7m9c for those two decks and you should get HL = 0 and 7m9c = 0 after all of the cards of the two decks were dealt. These You Tube videos make practicing HL with 7m9c easy. Be sure you can keep both HL and 7m9c accurately by practicing with these videos before you try to use HL with 7m9c in the casino.

If you end up using 7m9c as a side count to HL, I would appreciate your feedback by replying to this post.

You can mention such items as
1. was HL w 7m9c easy to learn
2. was it easy to keep the 7m9c accurately
3. did you use chips or try to keep 7m9c in your head with the HL
4. were you able to make the top 6 HL with 7m9c strategy changes correctly and easily
5. were you able to adjust the HL to the brc = betting running count = HL + (1/2)*(7m9c)
6. did you notice any improvement in your game using HL with 7m9c as opposed to the stand-alone HL

The power of HL with 7m9c has been proven in sims by Gronbog but it has not been used in casinos. So real life experience with HL w 7m9c is important to do through review of HL with 7m9c.

The 7m9c helps with:
1. Betting. Betting is very, very important in the shoe game.
2. Standing on hard 14 v T. Wong does not even have any HL indices to stand on hard 14 v T - he suggests HL players always hit hard 14 v T.
3. Late surrender hard 14 v 9, T, A, hard 13 v T and 8,8 v T DAS. Hard 14 and hard 13 surrenders often have your maximum bet out so making correct surrender decisions are very important. Also surrender increases EV and reduces risk. So help with these surrender decisions is very useful.

Now what 7m9c does NOT help with are:
1. Insurance
2. Standing on hard 12 v 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
3. Standing on hard 15 or 16 versus dealer high cards.
4. Surrendering hard 15 or 16 versus dealer high cards.

That is why the HO2 with ASC still beats HL w 7m9c.

But as shown HL with 7m9c gives over 50% of the HL gain you would get if you used the complicated HO2 w ASC. That is an impressive gain for very little extra work and no complicated level 2 count, no new count to learn, no new indices to learn other than the top 6 and just keeping a simple and exact plus/minus side count with HL.

So, I think blackjack forum readers will appreciate the 7m9c and actually use it. You get a big boost to the HL count with very little work.

Thanks for your reply and again if you or if any other blackjack forum readers end up using 7m9c with the HL I would appreciate it if you would reply to this post with your experiences with HL w 7m9c.

[Norm]

Please realize that constant repetition is boring as Hell.

[bjanalyst]

Please realize that constant repetition is boring as Hell.

Boring but making extra money while minimizing risk is not boring.

Also it was not all repetition.

I did mention a few new ideas such as what HL with 7m9c does not help with and why it still falls short of HO2 w ASC.

Also, I mentioned a bunch of questions, which is also new, I would like answered by any blackjack forum readers who actually use HL with 7m9c in the casino. Feedback is very important.

One of the main reasons I replied again is I would like to get some actual real world feedback from blackjack forum users who actually use HL w 7m9c in the casino.

Have a nice day.

[iCountNTrack]

Boring but making extra money while minimizing risk is not boring.

Also it was not all repetition.

I did mention a few new ideas such as what HL with 7m9c does not help with and why it still falls short of HO2 w ASC.

Also, I mentioned a bunch of questions, which is also new, I would like answered by any blackjack forum readers who actually use HL with 7m9c in the casino. Feedback is very important.

One of the main reasons I replied again is I would like to get some actual real world feedback from blackjack forum users who actually use HL w 7m9c in the casino.

Have a nice day.

Sorry still boring and a counting system is a not like cake recipe to request feedback on because the feedback is pretty much based on empirical evidence and is as useless as a feedback on a Martingale

[Norm]

And I was just going to post my recipe for bologna & SPAM cake.