Are HL SCOREs with no indices available for various scenarios?

[bjanalyst]

I guess this post is directed for Gronbog.

Gronbog’s sims are posted starting with the SCORE for HL with full indices and then the SCOREs of other count systems are listed for various scenarios such as play-all, back counting and bet spreads and for late surrender and no late surrender.

It is sometime difficult to assess what exactly the benefit of a SCORE with, for example, an 8% increase in SCORE over HL with full indices really means. If the HL with no indices SCORE was included, this increase 8% increase in SCORE would be more meaningful since counters have a good idea of the benefits of using indices with the HL as opposed to just using the HL for betting and basic strategy for all plays.

I have seen the benefits of using HL indices as opposed to HL with no indices ranging from 10% to 40% with a disclaimer that the increase in SCORE of HL with indices over HL with no indices depends on the bet spread, play all or back counted, Late Surrender, no late surrender and more.

Therefore, what would be especially helpful to gauge what an 8% increase over HL with full indices really means would be relating that 8% increase, for each particular situation, to the HL with full indices to the increase in the SCORE of the HL with full indices to the HL with no indices for that same situation to get a better grip on how beneficial the increase in SCORE really is.

For example, consider a six deck, five decks dealt, Late Surrender, back counted, 1-8 spread as follows:

HiLo Full no indices...........n/a
HiLo Full Indices ...........88.18
HiLo+7m9c-b-p top 6.....95.66
HiOpt II + ASC.............102.08

From this it can be seen that the SCORE of HL w 7m9c-b-p top 6 is 8% greater than the SCORE of HL with full indices and the SCORE of HO2 w ASC is 16% greater than the SCORE of HL with full indices.

But what would be helpful to get a better idea of exactly how much this 8% increase in HL w full indices SCORE really means would be to have the SCORE of HL with no indices for this situation.

So, for example, and I am just making this number up, the SCORE of HL with no indices was 80. Then the increase in the SCORE of HL with full indices to the SCORE of HL with no indices would be 10%

Then the increase in the SCORE of HL w 7m9c of 8% can be compared with the 10% increase in the HL SCORE if full indices were used and you can then say including 7m9c top 6 gives almost as much extra advantage as including a full set of indices to the HL. That would make the 8% SCORE increase more meaningful.

If Gronbog has the SCOREs of HL with no indices and HL with full indices for say a six deck, five decks dealt, late surrender game and a six deck no late surrender game under various scenarios (play all and back counted) and various bet spreads that would be helpful to put the increase in SCORE for various counts in better perspective.

[Norm]

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[BJGenius007]

This question has been asked and answered before. Actually more than once.

Let me rephrase your question. What is the advantage for a Hi-Lo player use index play and proper 1 - 20 spread based on TC over a Hi-Lo player use no index play but spread properly using TC?

[bjanalyst]

This question has been asked and answered before. Actually more than once.

Let me rephrase your question. What is the advantage for a Hi-Lo player use index play and proper 1 - 20 spread based on TC over a Hi-Lo player use no index play but spread properly using TC?

That is not what I asked for. I asked for the SCORE of HL with no indices so I can compare with the SCORE of HL with full indices for each scenario where the sims were run on.

I have seen several articles and videos with the answer that adding indices to HL increase the HL winnings ranging from 10% to 40%, a huge range, with a disclaimer that the advantage depends on the bet spread and game. That is a huge gap that you can run a tractor trailer through.

I want to compare SCOREs not EVs for a particular scenario for various counts compared to the increase in SCORE of HL with full indices to HL with no indices for that same scenario which is used as sort of a base to compare the increase of SCORE of other counts to HL with full indices means for that scenario.

This information would be useful to include in all sims run. Currently the sims list only the SCORE of HL with full indices for each scenario. Including HL with no indices for each scenario and comparing to the SCORE of HL with full indices would be useful to figure out what an 8%, for example, increase of a particular count over in the SCORE over HL w full indices means.

What I would like to see for a particular scenario and a particular count what a SCORE increase of 8% over HL with full indices means. I need a benchmark to compare that 8% increase in SCORE to and the benchmark is the increase in the SCORE of HL with full indices to HL with no indices for THAT particular scenario, not a generalized 10% to 40% increase.

In particular, I was interested in the Late Surrender, six deck, five deck dealt, back counted, 1-8 spread SCORE of HL with 7m9c-b-p top 6 increase of 8% over HL with full indices. I would like to get a better grip on exactly what this means to see if keeping 7m9c with the HL is worth it.

The best way to see this is to compare, for THAT scenario, the SCORE of HL with full indices to HL with no indices. If, for THAT scenario, the SCORE of HL with full indices was 10% higher than the SCORE of HL with no indices then I could say that the 8% increase in the SCORE of HL w 7m9c to HL with full indices was worth almost as much as using a full set of indices with the HL from using no indices. This is something that is easy to relate to and that is what I would like to know and that would tell me whether keeping a 7m9c count with HL was worthwhile.

If the SCORE of HL with no indices were included in sims run for each scenario then the increase in the SCORE of HL with full indices to HL with no indices for a given situation gives an excellent gauge of what other SCORE increases over HL with full indices mean.

[Norm]

https://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration4.htm

[bjanalyst]

https://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration4.htm

Excelllent information and thank you very much. But these SCORES were kind of generalized.

What I was inetrested in was the SCORE of HL with no indices for a six deck, five decks dealt, Late Surrender, back counted, 1-8 spread as follows:

HiLo Full no indices...........n/a
HiLo Full Indices ...........88.18
HiLo+7m9c-b-p top 6.....95.66
HiOpt II + ASC.............102.08

The SCOREs listed were Gronbog's SCOREs and what is unknown, for this scenario, is the SCORE of HL with no indices.

In the link you gave me I read the SCORE off that chart for 52 cards left as approximately 55 where for the scenario I was looking at the SCORE for HL with full indices was 88.18.

I can see from that graph that for S17, DAS 1-12 spread with 52 cards left the SCORE for no indices appears to be 30 compared to the HL with full indices of 55 which is an 80% increase in the SCORE from using indices! The big percentage increase is because the SCORE starts out so low at 30.

I am assuming that the game is no late surrender and the game I was interested in was late surrender.

For late surrender the starting SCORE is much higher so the same point increase in the SCORE will be a smaller percentage.

Basically, I do not really know what an 8% increase in the HL with full indices SCORE means for Late Surrender, six deck, five decks dealt, back count, 1-8 spread means. Is an 8% increase in SCORE good and does that make it worthwhile to suggest to a HL player to keep 7m9c (the simplest and easiest plus/minus side count to add to the HL) with HL to help with betting and use 7m9c for the top 6 plays which are stand hard 14 v T, and surrender hard 14 v 9, T, A, hard 13 v T and 8,8 v T DAS?

I was hoping to be able to compare for Late Surrender, back counted, 1-8 spread, five out of six decks dealt, the HL with full indices SCORE increase of including 7m9c for betting and top 6 with HL with full indices to HL with no indices to see if the 8% increase in HL with full indices SCORE if HL with 7m9c for betting and top 6 is worth enough to recommend that it is worthwhile to keep. That is what I really wanted to know.

But the link you gave me is a start and I really appreciate it. Thanks.

[aceside]

Gronbog hasn’t posted for awhile. He is focusing on his research and publishing.

[Norm]

The charts on that site are designed to be illustrative. There exist a vast, vast number of combinations of parameters that can be taken into account. If you want a great deal of data for your particular needs, generally you need to do the work yourself.

[bjanalyst]

The charts on that site are designed to be illustrative. There exist a vast, vast number of combinations of parameters that can be taken into account. If you want a great deal of data for your particular needs, generally you need to do the work yourself.

I do not want a lot of data.

I just want to figure out what this 8% SCORE increase for six deck, five decks dealt, Late Surrender, back counted, 1-8 spread means and if it is significant or not.

HiLo Full no indices...........n/a
HiLo Full Indices ...........88.18
HiLo+7m9c-b-p top 6.....95.66
HiOpt II + ASC.............102.08

From your experience is an increase in the SCORE from 88.18 to 95.66 significant?

I just want your opinion on this, not a lot of data.

I would like to know if that increase is significant enough to warrant recommending the HL player add the 7m9c to the HL. Is the extra 8% SCORE gain worth the extra work of keeping the 7m9c with the HL. If chips are used keeping 7m9c is easy and not a lot of work, but I would still like to get an idea if this increase in SCORE is significant.

That is all I would like to know. I would appreciate your opinion on this increase in SCORE.

[bjanalyst]

Gronbog hasn’t posted for awhile. He is focusing on his research and publishing.

Thank you very much for letting me know that Gronbog is busy.

I really just want to know if the SCORE increase from using 7m9c with HL is significant which is what I asked Norm.

I do not need to know the SCORE of HL with no indices, just if the increase in the SCORE from using 7m9c is significant.

Thanks for your input.

[bjanalyst]

The charts on that site are designed to be illustrative. There exist a vast, vast number of combinations of parameters that can be taken into account. If you want a great deal of data for your particular needs, generally you need to do the work yourself.

I found an old email from Gronbog where he says that everyone has their own idea of complexity and whether the extra effort it worth the extra gain so i do not want to you put in the position of making a blanket statement that depends on the individual.

I can review what Gronbog's sims show:

six deck, five decks dealt, Late Surrender, back counted, 1-8 spread as follows:


HiLo Full no indices...........n/a
HiLo Full Indices ...........88.18
HiLo+7m9c-b-p top 6.....95.66
HiOpt II + ASC.............102.08

So it can be seen that HL w 7m9c gives (95.66-88.18) / 102.08 - 88.18) = 54% of the gain that HO2 w ASC gives.

So there is some substantial gain here. But the question is how easy is it to keep 7m9c. With chips it is very easy.

I found this video on You Tube of this guy using chips to keep a side count of Aces and he says he has never been bothered about using chips. He makes it look like he is just paying with his chips.

Start at 15 minutes into this video to see guy using chips to keep a side count of Aces.
How to Count Cards (Blackjack) (2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeAZdGDFCLQ

Likewise the 7m9c is very simple and can be keep with chips without raising suspicion.

So the HL player can decide whether to use the 7m9c count or not. He can try it with chips and if there is no problem he can use it.

But this is an individual decision so I do not want you to commit to an general answer. It depends on the individual. 7m9c does help and with chips is easy to keep but again it depends on the individual.

Thanks for all of your help.