Various Thoughts

**Duc939** · 02-25-2022, 08:39 PM

G'day fellow players, I've come up with a few more thoughts I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts on.

1. Standing on a hard 16 VS 10. Everywhere suggests stand on any positive running count, I don't believe CVDATA can give this as an indice, and therefore '0' would be closest to such a situation, meaning you would stand on any positive running count but also stand on an actual 0, it however always gives +1 (true) which is what I've been happy using at casinos so far. However all resources suggest to use RC.

2. Splitting VS doubling 4's - the indices for splitting will be reached before doubling. But if a higher count exists should we split or double? Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong suggest splitting in such a situation if DAS is allowed, but let's say we have a true 10 with 4's VS a 4 or 5 or 6, personally I'd rather double and most likely end up with 18 than put the same wager down for what will most likely be two 14's, sure there's a chance of another double but the chance of pulling a 6, 5 or 4 is much lower at such counts anyway to present such an oppurtunity.
I'm also interested in what CVDATA simulations do in this situation? Does it change depending on whether DAS is allowed?

Splitting 10's - I've decided to split 10's, I use RA indices against dealer 4, 5 or 6. I'm interested in hearing does anyone ever split 10's just once? I guess it's a personal thing and there's no rule saying you HAVE TO split again if you get another 10, but of course you're going against your original strategy to then stand on the second oppurtunity, there's also no way to accurately simulate this on CVDATA I don't believe to compare results, although I assume in the long run it's a minute difference overall. Where I play you can split twice up to three hands.
The dealer landing on 21 last night from a 4 at a true 9 after I split 10s twice at max bet got me thinking about this, that one hurt! In reality though I ended up with three 20s which was a brief feeling of success.

Happy counting!

**Norm** · 02-26-2022, 03:30 AM

1. This is in my copy of CVData; but I haven't released it yet. Makes very little difference.

2. CVData always looks for a split opportunity before doubling. You can have a separate DAS split table, as do most of the included strategies.

3. Few people split tens. Never thought about simming this situation. Wouldn't be difficult to add.

**DSchles** · 02-26-2022, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Duc939

1. Standing on a hard 16 VS 10. Everywhere suggests stand on any positive running count, I don't believe CVDATA can give this as an indice, and therefore '0' would be closest to such a situation, meaning you would stand on any positive running count but also stand on an actual 0, it however always gives +1 (true) which is what I've been happy using at casinos so far. However all resources suggest to use RC.

Not ALL resources suggest to use RC! If you have a TC of exactly 0--meaning the RC is also 0--it is correct to stand.

Originally Posted by Duc939

2. Splitting VS doubling 4's - the indices for splitting will be reached before doubling. But if a higher count exists should we split or double? Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong suggest splitting in such a situation if DAS is allowed, but let's say we have a true 10 with 4's VS a 4 or 5 or 6, personally I'd rather double and most likely end up with 18 than put the same wager down for what will most likely be two 14's, sure there's a chance of another double but the chance of pulling a 6, 5 or 4 is much lower at such counts anyway to present such an opportunity.
I'm also interested in what CVDATA simulations do in this situation? Does it change depending on whether DAS is allowed?

There is no discussion for this play vs. 4 or 5, if DAS is allowed. You split. Period. Against 6, once the TC is +11 or higher, doubling becomes the superior play to splitting. But, at the +10 you mentioned, splitting is still slightly better. Understand, of course, that you will go your entire life and NEVER have the occasion to receive this exact hand in conjunction with such a high count, so the discussion is purely academic.

You should avoid making statements such as, "Personally, I'd rather double." If you're going to play the game according to what you FEEL you'd PREFER to do, you're not going to get very far.

Don

**Duc939** · 02-26-2022, 07:51 PM

Thanks for the replies.

OK if splitting 4's is in no doubt the correct play that's how it shall be. With this advice and comparing the reports of EV at given counts between the two decisions it would be silly to argue it, particularly against a 5 upcard.

Would be interesting to simulate that situation with the 10's, for now I will continue to split them whilst the count for each decision is correct up to the maximum allowable splits, but would be good to get some data on limiting consecutive splits for 10's, I guess it's probably minimal though unless you're splitting at the incorrect time, for starters you need to get running 10's for it to even be a factor, but of course that happens at such counts. I've decided to include splitting 10's as there's no point me trying to fly under the radar, my local casino has only one table worthwhile playing which makes particular tactics very obvious of course, one of the dealers has even said something but I'm just not sure how far up the info is going and if they care at this stage with only a 10X betting ramp on a minimum table; interesting little experiment though.

**Cacarulo** · 02-27-2022, 08:42 AM

Hi,

2. Splitting VS doubling 4's - the indices for splitting will be reached before doubling. But if a higher count exists should we split or double? Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong suggest splitting in such a situation if DAS is allowed, but let's say we have a true 10 with 4's VS a 4 or 5 or 6, personally I'd rather double and most likely end up with 18 than put the same wager down for what will most likely be two 14's, sure there's a chance of another double but the chance of pulling a 6, 5 or 4 is much lower at such counts anyway to present such an oppurtunity.
I'm also interested in what CVDATA simulations do in this situation? Does it change depending on whether DAS is allowed?

Well, It does change if DAS if allowed. Let me show you what the differences are:

6D,SPL3,DAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +3 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= 0 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= -2 --> SPLIT and if index >= +12 --> DD

6D,SPL3,NDAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +7 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 5 if index >= +4 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 6 if index >= +2 --> ALWAYS DD

Now, If you're not allowed to DD on a total of eight then you have to split if:

44 vs 4 if index >= +13 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= +9 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= +18 --> ALWAYS SPLIT

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

**Gramazeka** · 02-27-2022, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Cacarulo

Hi,

2. Splitting VS doubling 4's - the indices for splitting will be reached before doubling. But if a higher count exists should we split or double? Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong suggest splitting in such a situation if DAS is allowed, but let's say we have a true 10 with 4's VS a 4 or 5 or 6, personally I'd rather double and most likely end up with 18 than put the same wager down for what will most likely be two 14's, sure there's a chance of another double but the chance of pulling a 6, 5 or 4 is much lower at such counts anyway to present such an oppurtunity.
I'm also interested in what CVDATA simulations do in this situation? Does it change depending on whether DAS is allowed?

Well, It does change if DAS if allowed. Let me show you what the differences are:

6D,SPL3,DAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +3 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= 0 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= -2 --> SPLIT and if index >= +12 --> DD

6D,SPL3,NDAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +7 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 5 if index >= +4 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 6 if index >= +2 --> ALWAYS DD

Now, If you're not allowed to DD on a total of eight then you have to split if:

44 vs 4 if index >= +13 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= +9 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= +18 --> ALWAYS SPLIT

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

Maestro, I'm glad to see you again on the forum. My respect...

**Cacarulo** · 02-27-2022, 09:02 AM

Thank you!

**aceside** · 02-27-2022, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cacarulo

Well, It does change if DAS if allowed. Let me show you what the differences are:

6D,SPL3,DAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +3 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= 0 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= -2 --> SPLIT and if index >= +12 --> DD

6D,SPL3,NDAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +7 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 5 if index >= +4 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 6 if index >= +2 --> ALWAYS DD

Now, If you're not allowed to DD on a total of eight then you have to split if:

44 vs 4 if index >= +13 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= +9 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= +18 --> ALWAYS SPLIT

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

Wonderful work! Can you also extend this calculation into 2-deck games?
I haven’t seen any 6-deck non-DAS games anywhere, but seen a lot of 2-deck DAS or non-DAS games.

**Cacarulo** · 02-27-2022, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by aceside

Wonderful work! Can you also extend this calculation into 2-deck games?
I haven’t seen any 6-deck non-DAS games anywhere, but seen a lot of 2-deck DAS or non-DAS games.

No problem, the indices are "almost" the same:

2D,SPL3,DAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +3 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= -1 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= -2 --> SPLIT and if index >= +12 --> DD

2D,SPL3,NDAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +7 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 5 if index >= +4 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 6 if index >= +2 --> ALWAYS DD

Now, If you're not allowed to DD on a total of eight then you have to split if:

44 vs 4 if index >= +13 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= +8 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= +19 --> ALWAYS SPLIT

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

**Duc939** · 02-28-2022, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Cacarulo

Hi,

2. Splitting VS doubling 4's - the indices for splitting will be reached before doubling. But if a higher count exists should we split or double? Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong suggest splitting in such a situation if DAS is allowed, but let's say we have a true 10 with 4's VS a 4 or 5 or 6, personally I'd rather double and most likely end up with 18 than put the same wager down for what will most likely be two 14's, sure there's a chance of another double but the chance of pulling a 6, 5 or 4 is much lower at such counts anyway to present such an oppurtunity.
I'm also interested in what CVDATA simulations do in this situation? Does it change depending on whether DAS is allowed?

Well, It does change if DAS if allowed. Let me show you what the differences are:

6D,SPL3,DAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +3 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= 0 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= -2 --> SPLIT and if index >= +12 --> DD

6D,SPL3,NDAS,Hi-Lo

44 vs 4 if index >= +7 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 5 if index >= +4 --> ALWAYS DD
44 vs 6 if index >= +2 --> ALWAYS DD

Now, If you're not allowed to DD on a total of eight then you have to split if:

44 vs 4 if index >= +13 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 5 if index >= +9 --> ALWAYS SPLIT
44 vs 6 if index >= +18 --> ALWAYS SPLIT

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Cac

Thanks for that, my question was actually relating to the order the software plays the hand however, and whether it changes if DAS is selected as 'allowed', which Norm answered. None the less good info.
My question was to spark conversation based on "my logic", but the responses were clear cut and I went back to the drawing board and have convinced myself to split during a DAS game even once the DD indice has been reached.

Regarding Don mentioning that a hard 16 should be a stand even on a "true 0" - I apologise, I believe I read somewhere you deviate at a positive RC but of course you are correct and on going back to all creditable sources they do list '0'. however on CVDATA I do get "1" and hence have been using this at the casino.

As for DD eventually becoming more advantageous than splitting 4's against a 6 in a DAS game, how are people calculating this? (pure curiosity). The way I've been comparing splitting VS DD is by running CVIndex then comparing the EV's from split and DD tables for any given true count, but the split table doesn't go very high on this one as the correct index is so low (shows up to +8).

Duc

**Norm** · 02-28-2022, 06:05 AM

You don't need to run the DD index and compare. Just run the split index:

44v6.jpg

The green line is the split or hit advantage which ever is higher at any point. The range of the chart adjusts according to the data.

**Lester** · 02-28-2022, 06:30 AM

Off thread with apologies; am I going to in a predicament if I use a friend's player card? I have friends who play but don't counter, and other friends who would willingly sign up and lend their player's cards. Getting back into blackjack after years off: it's way harder than I remember. Reading Blackjack Attack ...I can already see many errors I was making back in the day, especially as far as outlasting my welcome.
On the good news side, Spanish 21's not so different as I thought and BJ Verite sets it up with 2 button clicks. I assume good counters are fluent in both Spanish 21 and BJ. I only did BJ before. I want longevity.

**DSchles** · 02-28-2022, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

You don't need to run the DD index and compare. Just run the split index:

44v6.jpg

The green line is the split or hit advantage which ever is higher at any point. The range of the chart adjusts according to the data.

Yes, but you can see that your red and green lines aren't parallel and, in fact, eventually cross. It's at +11 or +12 where double becomes preferable. The point is, once again, you're never going to encounter those circumstances in your entire lifetime, so the discussion is purely academic in nature.

Don