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Thread: How to determine the best side count: a blueprint

  1. #1


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    How to determine the best side count: a blueprint

    Here was my approach to finding the largest impact side count for Wong Halves. I think there’s a lot of good info in this post, but it may be difficult to digest for some. I don’t know how to write code, so these were my primary tools:

    Complete EoR tables.
    Formulas from Peter Griffin’s Theory Of Blackjack.
    MGP CA.
    Excel spreadsheets. Huge ones.

    First, I investigated the 789 block side count extensively, then discarded the idea for reasons stated elsewhere. Balanced side counts are the way to go. For the analysis I did, I also decided that balancing single ranks against each other was the best, that way the side count is only used where it helps. Combining ranks in a side count causes increased needs for brain power while also degrading the utility of the side count because the ranks lumped together do not always synergize.

    If I was going to develop a side count, it may as well be the best, so I decided to find the most valuable possible side count for Wong Halves, which involved a shit load of math. I got Don’s EoR tables into Excel by scanning the EoR pages, using software to convert to text, then I went tediously number by number through the entire thing to get it 100.00% correct. For my overall analysis, some EoRs were still needed, so I used MGP CA to make a totally complete EoR table.

    I setup an Excel table to calculate the PE of every hand matchup based on the main system tags. Then I added on calculations for using balanced side counts to optimize every hand matchup. While investigating a particular balanced side count, I’d vary the side count tag multiplier over a range with fine increments before combining those tags with the main system tags, and calculate the PE for the entire range of tag multipliers. For each play I could see the best multiplier of the side count tags that gives the biggest improvement in PE. Then after seeing the optimal multipliers, I decided which integer or half integer multiples would be practical, because this has to lead to a workable strategy that can be used with mental math.

    I came up with a very good but approximate formula to rank the impact of each balanced side count, then I systematically went through every possible balanced side count of 2 ranks, determined their impact, and selected the one with the largest impact for further strategy development. I didn’t have the means to do a perfect analysis, but I’m pretty sure a perfect analysis would arrive at the same results in the end. I’m providing a blue print that others can do probably even better than me, and for their particular counting system.

    Formula for impact of a balanced side count:
    Sum of (A x B x C x D x E) for all hands affected by the side count.

    A = Frequency of player hand & dealer up card. Matchups that happen more often are more important. A good way to do this would be to use the frequency that a hand matchup occurs when tracking the count using the optimized modified tags for the play, from a deck composition representative of the true count at the index for the play. Doing the above was more work than I was willing to put into this, so I simply used the frequency of hands from an infinite deck. This isn’t ideal, but it’s far better than not including this factor at all.

    B = Frequency of time the card distribution will meet or exceed the index for the play. These formulas are in the Theory of Blackjack. For example, if a play tends to happen at TC +3, then you’d use the frequency of time that the deck is at TC = 3 and all higher TCs. The closer to TC = 0 that an index is, the more impact that playing decision has. I used a composite frequency based on deck depth, utilizing the TC frequency distribution at 1/6, 2/6, 3/6, 4/6 and 5/6 into a 6D shoe.

    C = Improvement in PE percentage using the modified tags, compared to the PE from the main system tags. Because a bigger PE improvement is better than a smaller PE improvement. Duh.

    D = Rate of change of EV relative to TC near the index. As you meet and exceed the TC for an index play, some plays have EV that only changes slowly with the TC, and some plays the EV changes rapidly with TC. The more rapidly the EV changes with TC, the more impact that playing decision has.

    E = Weighting for bet ramp. A playing decision that tends to happen with more money on the table has more impact. The weighting here can also be used to bifurcate the results into play-all and Wonging out (e.g. give a weight of zero for index plays you won’t be there for).

    I lumped the insurance decision in with all the other plays.

    So yeah, I did the math. Every possible balanced side count of 2 ranks was investigated and the magnitude of impact determined. I may not know how to write programs, but my skills with Excel and using the MGP CA are badass.

    The best side count that came out of this analysis had an impact on ~150 of the top ~180 index plays, so this side count affects almost all the plays. Only two of the I18 indexes are not affected. The side count ranking was the same whether Wonging out or not. I then developed a full strategy for all indexes for this side count. I binned the affected plays into 4 different tag multipliers, making the overall strategy like a system of 5 systems. One thing is that when you combine the main tags with the side count tags, it is like using a different card counting system, so the index used when only using the main count is technically different than when using the modified tags. However, by lucky accident, nearly all the modified indexes were so similar that I can use the same indexes whether I am only using the main count, or the main count with side count, except for 2 very obscure plays where I’ve memorized 2 quite different indexes. There were no plays that used the side count alone. Memorizing which of the 4 possible tag adjustments go with each play was easy, because they make intuitive sense about deck composition and generally large sections of the strategy chart have the same tag multiplier. Opportunities to use the side count info to make better playing decisions happens with decent frequency, even in 8 deck, even on the first hand dealt (e.g. running count plays). The side count also improves the play of common side bets. I don’t have a proper sim of how this strategy performs, but I will try to work on that with a collaborator who can do this properly. It is my prediction that this system would probably be the strongest possible 2 parameter system that exists.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    Here was my approach to finding the largest impact side count for Wong Halves. I think there’s a lot of good info in this post, but it may be difficult to digest for some. I don’t know how to write code, so these were my primary tools:

    Complete EoR tables.
    Formulas from Peter Griffin’s Theory Of Blackjack.
    MGP CA.
    Excel spreadsheets. Huge ones.

    First, I investigated the 789 block side count extensively, then discarded the idea for reasons stated elsewhere. Balanced side counts are the way to go. For the analysis I did, I also decided that balancing single ranks against each other was the best, that way the side count is only used where it helps. Combining ranks in a side count causes increased needs for brain power while also degrading the utility of the side count because the ranks lumped together do not always synergize.

    If I was going to develop a side count, it may as well be the best, so I decided to find the most valuable possible side count for Wong Halves, which involved a shit load of math. I got Don’s EoR tables into Excel by scanning the EoR pages, using software to convert to text, then I went tediously number by number through the entire thing to get it 100.00% correct. For my overall analysis, some EoRs were still needed, so I used MGP CA to make a totally complete EoR table.

    I setup an Excel table to calculate the PE of every hand matchup based on the main system tags. Then I added on calculations for using balanced side counts to optimize every hand matchup. While investigating a particular balanced side count, I’d vary the side count tag multiplier over a range with fine increments before combining those tags with the main system tags, and calculate the PE for the entire range of tag multipliers. For each play I could see the best multiplier of the side count tags that gives the biggest improvement in PE. Then after seeing the optimal multipliers, I decided which integer or half integer multiples would be practical, because this has to lead to a workable strategy that can be used with mental math.

    I came up with a very good but approximate formula to rank the impact of each balanced side count, then I systematically went through every possible balanced side count of 2 ranks, determined their impact, and selected the one with the largest impact for further strategy development. I didn’t have the means to do a perfect analysis, but I’m pretty sure a perfect analysis would arrive at the same results in the end. I’m providing a blue print that others can do probably even better than me, and for their particular counting system.

    Formula for impact of a balanced side count:
    Sum of (A x B x C x D x E) for all hands affected by the side count.

    A = Frequency of player hand & dealer up card. Matchups that happen more often are more important. A good way to do this would be to use the frequency that a hand matchup occurs when tracking the count using the optimized modified tags for the play, from a deck composition representative of the true count at the index for the play. Doing the above was more work than I was willing to put into this, so I simply used the frequency of hands from an infinite deck. This isn’t ideal, but it’s far better than not including this factor at all.

    B = Frequency of time the card distribution will meet or exceed the index for the play. These formulas are in the Theory of Blackjack. For example, if a play tends to happen at TC +3, then you’d use the frequency of time that the deck is at TC = 3 and all higher TCs. The closer to TC = 0 that an index is, the more impact that playing decision has. I used a composite frequency based on deck depth, utilizing the TC frequency distribution at 1/6, 2/6, 3/6, 4/6 and 5/6 into a 6D shoe.

    C = Improvement in PE percentage using the modified tags, compared to the PE from the main system tags. Because a bigger PE improvement is better than a smaller PE improvement. Duh.

    D = Rate of change of EV relative to TC near the index. As you meet and exceed the TC for an index play, some plays have EV that only changes slowly with the TC, and some plays the EV changes rapidly with TC. The more rapidly the EV changes with TC, the more impact that playing decision has.

    E = Weighting for bet ramp. A playing decision that tends to happen with more money on the table has more impact. The weighting here can also be used to bifurcate the results into play-all and Wonging out (e.g. give a weight of zero for index plays you won’t be there for).

    I lumped the insurance decision in with all the other plays.

    So yeah, I did the math. Every possible balanced side count of 2 ranks was investigated and the magnitude of impact determined. I may not know how to write programs, but my skills with Excel and using the MGP CA are badass.

    The best side count that came out of this analysis had an impact on ~150 of the top ~180 index plays, so this side count affects almost all the plays. Only two of the I18 indexes are not affected. The side count ranking was the same whether Wonging out or not. I then developed a full strategy for all indexes for this side count. I binned the affected plays into 4 different tag multipliers, making the overall strategy like a system of 5 systems. One thing is that when you combine the main tags with the side count tags, it is like using a different card counting system, so the index used when only using the main count is technically different than when using the modified tags. However, by lucky accident, nearly all the modified indexes were so similar that I can use the same indexes whether I am only using the main count, or the main count with side count, except for 2 very obscure plays where I’ve memorized 2 quite different indexes. There were no plays that used the side count alone. Memorizing which of the 4 possible tag adjustments go with each play was easy, because they make intuitive sense about deck composition and generally large sections of the strategy chart have the same tag multiplier. Opportunities to use the side count info to make better playing decisions happens with decent frequency, even in 8 deck, even on the first hand dealt (e.g. running count plays). The side count also improves the play of common side bets. I don’t have a proper sim of how this strategy performs, but I will try to work on that with a collaborator who can do this properly. It is my prediction that this system would probably be the strongest possible 2 parameter system that exists.
    I find that post incomplete! HAHA, just kidding. I am curious to see the follow-up. When can we expect that?

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Secretariat View Post
    I find that post incomplete! HAHA, just kidding. I am curious to see the follow-up. When can we expect that?
    Oh, did I leave something out? Whoopsies!

    I don't have a specific timeline on the sims. I'll post something about it in the future but don't hold your breath.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    Oh, did I leave something out? Whoopsies!

    I don't have a specific timeline on the sims. I'll post something about it in the future but don't hold your breath.
    Im really curious to see what your side count is...Can you at least post the side count? I too have one that i came up with...Check it out! And tell me what you think?

    1223100-1-2(H15,16)
    6,7+2/X-1

    1223210-1-2.5(H14)Ace/-3+)

    1223320-1-3(H12,13)

    If you use half the side count you get this for H14 and betting(1223210-1-2.5)..

    I actually use this count(no sidecount)..But the difference is i tag the 10s @-1 and J,Q,K @-3
    Last edited by Jack Jackson; 12-14-2021 at 02:26 PM.
    http://bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Jackson View Post
    Im really curious to see what your side count is...Can you at least post the side count? I too have one that i came up with...Check it out! And tell me what you think?

    1223100-1-2(H15,16)
    6,7+2/X-1

    1223210-1-2.5(H14)Ace/-3+)

    1223320-1-3(H12,13)

    If you use half the side count you get this for H14 and betting(1223210-1-2.5)..

    I actually use this count(no sidecount)..But the difference is i tag the 10s @-1 and J,Q,K @-3
    Heres another good one:

    Main Count 22232100-3(-3+)

    Side Count: 6+1/7+3 vs X-1

    Example1.
    =22233400-4(H12,H13)
    =22231-200-2(15,16vs789)unsure about dealer face.

    I thought this was better then tagging the 6 and 7 at +2 each, because it wouldve tagged the 6 at +4 and 0 on the reverse count. Example:

    Main Count:22232100-3

    Side count: 6,7+2 vs X-1

    Example2
    Would make 22234300-4 and (22230-100-2) respectively.

    So again i believe its better to tag the 6@+1 and 7@+3 than +2 each as shown in example 1.
    Last edited by Jack Jackson; 12-14-2021 at 02:34 PM.
    http://bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Jackson View Post
    Main Count:22232100-3

    Side count: 6,7+2 vs X-1

    I didn't look at this specific grouping, but looking at all the other results I have, this would be a relatively strong (for what that's worth) side count. I like it better than the one with 6 & 7 at different values. You'll have to spend some quality time with those EoR tables to get the most out of it.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    I didn't look at this specific grouping, but looking at all the other results I have, this would be a relatively strong (for what that's worth) side count. I like it better than the one with 6 & 7 at different values. You'll have to spend some quality time with those EoR tables to get the most out of it.
    I thought about that, and i think you may be right, if i had to choose one of the two sidecounts...It just makes more sense to tag the 6,7 at +2 each since it would keep things more balanced. You could/would in essence achieve these counts respectively...

    22232100-3Main Count
    Side Count 6,7+2/X-1

    2223/-2-3/00/-1(H16)(x2)<
    2223/-1-2/00/-1.5

    2223/0-1/00/-2(H15)(x1)<
    2223/10/00/-2.5

    2223/21/00/-3(H14):Main Count<>

    2223/32/00/-3.5(H13)
    2223/43/00/-4(H12)(x1)>

    I kinda like that better, it makes more sense, thanks for the tip. I might post the playing strategys for these..If you compare the sidecount strategys to the maincount strategy if should give you an idea on how well they do or dont handle the desired hands..
    Last edited by Jack Jackson; 12-14-2021 at 11:38 PM.
    http://bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi

  8. #8


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    I Actually took this one step further and changed the primary count to a 13 point count by adding the Ace and Nine.

    The Primary Count is 12223210-1-3 while keeping the 6,7 sidecount @+2 each and Xs@-1 each.

    I then used CVindex to generate indexes for all 7 counts (including half points) as shown below in the charts.

    A)12223/-2-300-1-1
    B)12223/-1-200-1-1.5
    C)12223/0-100-1-2
    D)12223/100-1-2.5

    E)12223/210-1-3(Primary)

    F)12223/320-1-3.5
    G)12223/430-1-4

    Note: I realize the half point support maybe overkill but i figured it was best to show it as more of a reference..
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jack Jackson; 12-15-2021 at 02:12 AM.
    http://bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi

  9. #9


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    I think the best index can be determined by the strategy file...For example for 14 vs X we can see that the index for this hand is +21 in the Primary Strategy(CountE) but if you look at the last strategy CountG (12223430-1-4) we see that the index is only +19 for the 17 point count, therefore it is the best index for this hand. However instead of memorizing different indexes and adding and subtracting a different magnitude for the side count i believe we can just use one set of indexes from the primary count(CountE). In the case of 14x10 we can just ADD the sidecount in a multiparameter kind of way to our running count to adjust for this hand...

    In Example2 look at the index for 16v7 in Playing Strategy A. It only has an index of +6 in the 10point count system so therefore we know these "system tags" are the MOST accurate for this particular hand...However our Primary index happens to be +19 in the primary count(CountE).. Therefore we need to adjust our sidecount by x2 in REVERSE to make the best decision for this hand...

    Heres an example of what i mean by this.

    Say our primary count has a running of ZERO and 1 deck is remaining to be played and our side count is @-10...Since this is 16v7 we are now adding INSTEAD of subtracting (-10)while taking double the value since count A is best equipped for this hand. Therefore we are now at a TC of +20 which would justifys standing since our index is +19 for 16v7 even though we have a RC of Zero in the primary count.

    EDIT:Wait a minute i think im doing this wrong! I think i have to use +6 index from count A instead. So therefore i would only need a sidecount of -3 to justify standing, is that right?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jack Jackson; 12-15-2021 at 03:28 AM.
    http://bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi

  10. #10


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Here we are, considering a Level 4 count to add a few extra cents to our EV and considering strategy deviations that are minuscule in magnitude.

    It would be prudent to look at publicly available Level 2 counts and working with those.

    I also would like to stress that adding the 9 to any side count adds so little value to increase PE that it's almost laughable.

    Consider all other ranks besides the 9! Read ToBJ by Griffin, especially for Multi-Parameter strategy reasoning. Also , look at his "Percent Gain from Strategy Deviations" to get a perspective on what hand match-ups are best to be looked at.

    It would also be prudent to understand that you get a *far* better increase in EV just from adding an extra unit to your spread rather than conducting several different *difficult* side counts.

    Hi Opt II with both Ace and 7 in a good reference. See if one can simplify *that* before going on about a whole new system entirely.

    Trust me, it will pay to consider *not* over-thinking things...and this is coming from the King of Over-thinking.

  11. #11


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    For the record, you'll never hear me say (and I never have said) all this side-count business amounts to much gain in EV. What I am proud of though is doing some original blackjack research and using principles & info from people like Peter Griffin, Don & Norm, where I systematically and thoroughly took into account all the factors (to the best of my ability and resources) that could be used to evaluate every combination of balanced side counts of 2 ranks to identify what should be the strongest side count while also being usable, especially in 2D but also feasible in shoes.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Jackson View Post
    I think the best index can be determined by the strategy file...
    I disagree. I didn't see anywhere in your post any mention of Don's EoR tables. You have to use the Effect of Removal for the hand to determine which tags are best. You can calculate rather than guess.

  13. #13


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    Before we close this thread theres one more system that i "think" is actually worth mentioning here.. I literally thought about this for the last couple of weeks and have literally tried dozens of different combinations only in vain to keep running into flaws and counter productions in the systems.

    Here is what i like about this system in particular. It can be used in "stand alone" "mode" with NO side count needed. The BC. is .9964. The side count can be used in 1 of 2 different ways. Easy way or the Hard way. The Side Count is a +1/-1 point count added to a 12 point count system. The easy way is to just add the side count to the main count and use it for hands of 12,13 and 14 with the indexes generated for this count. The Main Count is used for 15 and 16s. Alternatively, the Hard Way would be to use the the "Multiplier Tables" and adjust the side count "respectively" to indexes generated for the main count only. Almost all indexes would be affected. Note: The Multiplier Tables are for single deck.

    2223210-1-2.75

    Note: -2.75 is created by tagging the Ten@-2 and the J,Q,K@-3

    We then SC the 7+1 and the Ten -1

    Note:The Seven and Ten are counted twice.

    Which gives us the count of 2223220-1-3 when added together(Aka VAPC). Which can be used for hands of 12,13 and 14s with the respective indexes. However, for a even better and stronger PE. we could use the Multiplier Tables(shown below) and adjust our running count for ALL indexed hands to the Primary Strategy. Its great to have an option right. And like i said the Main system is very strong by itself and NO side count is needed. Optional. Its just something you can add on as the years go by. Ive attached the MP tables for some insight.

    And Btw Ben, nice write up on this thread. I enjoy reading your posts.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jack Jackson; 01-05-2022 at 02:12 AM.
    http://bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi

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