How Far Out of my Way is Justified for Late Surrender?

**Mets** · 11-30-2020, 07:36 PM

Happy Holidays Everyone!

I am a KO Player and I just read in the color of Blackjack the late surrender rule increases EV by much more than the 0.06% it is known for.

According to Daniel Dravot, the Author, the 0.06% reduction in house edge from late surrender is based on flat betting.

However, when counting cards, late surrender gives significantly more than 0.06 advantage. This is because we are not flat betting and we save "dramatically" more money when surrendering our Max bets.

**Freightman** · 11-30-2020, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mets

Happy Holidays Everyone!

I am a KO Player and I just read in the color of Blackjack the late surrender rule increases EV by much more than the 0.06% it is known for.

According to Daniel Dravot, the Author, the 0.06% reduction in house edge from late surrender is based on flat betting.

However, when counting cards, late surrender gives significantly more than 0.06 advantage. This is because we are not flat betting and we save "dramatically" more money when surrendering our Max bets.

Another way of looking at it. Surrender, used properly by a counter, will add at 30% plus to your win rate. To be more precise, surrender does not make money for you, rather it helps you lose less. Tantamount to the same thing.

**DSchles** · 12-01-2020, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Surrender, used properly by a counter, will add at 30% plus to your win rate.

It adds much more than that. Look at the p. 232 charts of BJA3, and do the math.

Don

**Freightman** · 12-01-2020, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by DSchles

It adds much more than that. Look at the p. 232 charts of BJA3, and do the math.

Don

Didn't have, and still don’t have it in front of me. Assume it’s about 38%. Didn’t want to overstate, so, the notation - 30% plus

**DSchles** · 12-01-2020, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Didn't have, and still don’t have it in front of me. Assume it’s about 38%. Didn’t want to overstate, so, the notation - 30% plus

It's MUCH more than that!

Don

**Freightman** · 12-01-2020, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by DSchles

It's MUCH more than that!

Don

ive made a note to myself to check out charts on p 232 of Professional Blackjack....oh wait, BJA3. I’ll do that tomorrow.

**Freightman** · 12-01-2020, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

ive made a note to myself to check out charts on p 232 of Professional Blackjack....oh wait, BJA3. I’ll do that tomorrow.

Its getting late and I’ll check it in more detail tomorrow. A quick cursory review is really interesting. Checking 6 deck columns H17 DAS against column H17 DAS LS seems to show a far higher percentage increase in win rate on lower versus higher spreads.

This has some interesting strategy implications, which I want to give more thought on.

**DSchles** · 12-02-2020, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Its getting late and I’ll check it in more detail tomorrow. A quick cursory review is really interesting. Checking 6 deck columns H17 DAS against column H17 DAS LS seems to show a far higher percentage increase in win rate on lower versus higher spreads.

This has some interesting strategy implications, which I want to give more thought on.

It always amazes me how knowledgeable you are on the game in some areas and then. ... READ the book! Really READ it! :-)

Don

**Freightman** · 12-02-2020, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by DSchles

It always amazes me how knowledgeable you are on the game in some areas and then. ... READ the book! Really READ it! :-)

Don

2,3 maybe 4 comments
1. Your comments are actually vindication from those lobotomized (thanks for the saying) Neanderthal dumb fuck douchebags who espouse their stupidity (you guys know who you are) claiming I know not.
2. I think your comments, usually bang on, miss context (it happens and I forgive you), and besides, I was tired when I write those words causing your unrighteousness indignation.
3. I have read said book with vigor and without malice aforethought. I claim many, including myself, have read cover to cover your delightful magnum opus, but further confess that one cannot ever truly complete reading of same - a true compliment.
4. It’s time for dinner.

**21forme** · 12-02-2020, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

complement.

Ruh Roh.

**Freightman** · 12-02-2020, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by 21forme

Ruh Roh.

fixed

**BoSox** · 12-03-2020, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Freightman

I claim many, including myself, have read cover to cover your delightful magnum opus, but further confess that one cannot ever truly complete reading of same - a true compliment.

I concur with your true statement.

**DSchles** · 12-01-2020, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mets

Happy Holidays Everyone!

I am a KO Player and I just read in the color of Blackjack the late surrender rule increases EV by much more than the 0.06% it is known for.

According to Daniel Dravot, the Author, the 0.06% reduction in house edge from late surrender is based on flat betting.

However, when counting cards, late surrender gives significantly more than 0.06 advantage. This is because we are not flat betting and we save "dramatically" more money when surrendering our Max bets.

Since you don't seem to have a question, I'll just assume that you're looking for confirmation of Dravot's statements. Yes, they are correct. To quantify how much the actual improvement can be, see the summary charts that introduce each of the sections of the Chapter 10 charts of BJA3.

Don