Norm attack

[KJ]

As a number of our cross-over membership knows by now, there was a rather nasty attack in our community last night on the green chip site against our very own Norm (KJ shouts "NORM" as Norm enters the bar).

The post in question was posted by a member hiding behind a second made up 'handle', which behind the antiquated software, is the second biggest thing I hate about that site. The post questioned Norms running of a sim for 'benedict Eliot' back in Decemeber. It went on to imply homosexual motives between Norm and Eliot, which I and a number of other members objected too and has since been 'clean up' by the moderator.

Now the main point raised in that thread before the cowardly double anonymous poster went so juvenile still remains. I sent Norm a private message last night, not to question him about the incident, I don't have a problem with it, but just to make him aware of the attack of his good name. He responded with a private message this morning explaining his thoughts and reasons for his action, which again, wasn't necessary as I don't have a problem with it.

Now Norm hasn't responded in public, as he has chosen to not participate on wongs site, I guess from some sort of incident, long before my involvement with the BJ community and he hasn't responded here, I am guessing figuring it deserves no response, which I can appreciate, but I feel his private response to me this morning of his reasons and thoughts might be of interest to the community and would like to encourage Norm to defend his honor and repeat them publicly.

[Kat]

Does Norm's honor really need defending?

[Ouchez]

The sad fact is some few people need a good ole' fashion "beatdown", or at least a real aggressive "Bieech Slappin",,,,just sayin...............................



Ouchez

[Ouchez]

This dirty bird needs more than a Bleech Slappin to clean his clock. He's coockoo.

"coockoo",,hardly, more like a MOFU.

Ouchez

[moo321]

Hold on. I don't have any problem with Norm, and I appreciate the contributions he's made to the game. But why in the hell would he be doing anything for Jacobson? There is no question, that guy is an outright traitor, and an EXTREMELY dangerous one at that. He goes far beyond merely consulting, which would have a limited effect on most AP's lives, to publicly posting how to protect all sorts of games.

[Ouchez]

Hold on. I don't have any problem with Norm, and I appreciate the contributions he's made to the game. But why in the hell would he be doing anything for Jacobson? There is no question, that guy is an outright traitor, and an EXTREMELY dangerous one at that. He goes far beyond merely consulting, which would have a limited effect on most AP's lives, to publicly posting how to protect all sorts of games.

Moo,

I understand your concern and I am sure Norm will make a statement. I also have my concerns, the air must be cleared, but in a respectful manner, not how it was handled on GC.

Best,
Ouchez

[Al Mucous]

to publicly posting how to protect all sorts of games.

I think Eliot's business model depends on fomenting irrational levels of paranoia in prospective clients. For that reason he feels compelled to post new content steadily, to post, as you say, about all sorts of games. There is an upside (for us) in his approach. He does a poor job of distinguishing among the various kinds of advantage moves out there in terms of the real-life threats represented by those moves -- in part because he himself has little idea how working, successful professionals actually support themselves. As he acknowledges: he's a failed AP. He doesn't really know how to do it. That's why he's devoted the same time to discussing edge sorting as he has to Don Johnson. He doesn't understand the difference. Fortunately for Johnson the casinos didn't either until it was too late.

Eliot's campaign with respect to Grosjean is truly loathsome, and his overall story appears to me quite sad. But knowing that he's a paid industry consultant, and that (therefore) the level of understanding of real-world AP money-generation depicted on his blog represents perhaps even a higher level than that of the insiders who decide he's worth paying, for me has been revelatory. He doesn't get it, still. That's why he failed. That's why he continues to fail. And that's why I think he's not dangerous. He wishes he were, and certainly he wants many many card counters to put Google-searchable blurbs up on the Internet lamenting how dangerous he is -- it's good for business -- but I think when the final search results are in their message will be: He's a clown. Sad clown.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.

[Norm]

A few comments:

1. These kinds of personal attacks, and the fact that they are allowed to remain when they are against some, but not others, is exactly why I will not post on Wong’s site. Yes it is cowardly to post personal attacks anonymously; but even more cowardly to post them where the victim cannot respond. Six years and ten months ago, someone posted on BJ21 that you should not buy CV from me because I would turn you in to the casinos. He went on to accuse both me and Don of criminal fraud. Not only is this false, it is ridiculous on so many levels. Over 95% of my customers aren’t even APs. But, the posts I made in my defense were removed while the accusations were allowed to stand. When I continued to try to defend myself, I was suspended from posting, or even reading any new accusations, for seven days. When I posted elsewhere that I was barred from posting, Wong made a post saying I was not barred; I was simply on vacation for seven days. I said make it seven years. I have not posted there since. That seven year period ends in two months. Given the handling of this attack, I am extending that for another seven years.
2. Let me explain what I mean by the handling of this new attack. The post was titled “Norm + Eliot Tru Luv 4ever” and the post declared that Eliot was homosexual. That is, it suggested that we were gay lovers and this was the motivation behind some sort of professional relationship. That made it an obvious troll, to be ignored like any other bigoted fool. And, the responses showed an understanding of such. But, bj21 edited out the gay references and cleaned it up, leaving the additional attack in place. Now, with the bigotry removed, the newer responses suggest it was in good faith; instead of a bigoted rant by someone that has an obvious personal agenda. Frankly, I cannot imagine the thinking that goes behind leaving such anonymous attacks up and denying the ability to respond. Or, why they are made in the first place where the victim is not present.
3. Actually, there is an interesting history here. I have never met Eliot in person. But, if some of the oldsters think back, they might remember that I was the very first to be highly critical of him. And, I took a lot of heat for it as most everyone supported him at that time. (This was pre-Chumash.) Eliot’s problem was that he is an academic at heart. He likes to teach. (Those critical of academe might substitute the words ‘academic’ and ‘teach’ with ‘pedant’ and ‘pontificate’.) But, that’s just history. Eventually, Eliot discovered the error of his ways.
4. I have been offered cash to run sims many times. Only, I don’t study for money. If it makes sense for me to run sims, I do. If not, I don’t. I also believe it is extremely short-sited to never deal with people on “the other side.” In the corporate world, it is not only common to deal with competitors (internal and external); but you will fail if you follow such a barbaric philosophy. Ironically, wasn’t Wong himself paid by a casino to testify against a card counter in Campione V. Adamar? Where is the outrage on his site? I won’t consult or testify for a casino. But, I don’t hold it against people that do. For example, Shack and I have worked on problems together. His Wizard sites are of great value to APs. He attends the Max’s BJ Ball. But, he has performed more casino consulting than Eliot. Hell, Max himself is a casino consultant and the BJ Ball is sponsored by a casino. That isn’t going to stop me from asking him to guest a chat. Just as Bill Zender, ex-casino manager and current casino consultant, guested a chat. Seriously, treating AP as some sort of Scriptural Holy War between pure forms of Good and Evil is self-defeating. Given the difficult task of AP these days, one must use every tool and resource one can find. I talk to everyone, including many that most people think are my deadly enemies. That’s how I know what’s going on.
5. Eliot made some very stupid mistakes long ago, and rightly took a great deal of heat. He learned from those mistakes. He also started casino consulting. Quick quiz. What do all of the following have in common: Stanford Wong, Lawrence Revere, Bill Zender, Michael Shackleford (WizardofOdds), Karel Janá?ek (SBA), Olaf Vancura (KO), Mike Aponte (MIT Mike), Max Rubin, Steve Forte? Answer, they have all consulted for the other side. Should we refuse to use these people in our own endeavors? I have never consulted for a casino. But, that is simply my personal preference, not something I found carved on a stone tablet.
6. Having rambled for a bit, let me answer the question finally asked on bj21: What is my professional relationship with Eliot? I have none. We have never entered into any business deals. Fact is, I have more reason to be angry at Eliot than most anyone else on these forums as he took the fight site's side against me and Don. But, that's water under the bridge, and holding grudges is not healthy for old folk like me. I have discussed some opportunities with him. In this particular case, Eliot was requesting sims, not for a client, but for public consumption. As the info would be public, and could be of interest, I ran the sims -- just as I have run sims for Shackleford for public consumption. That’s what I do.

One last comment. If not for bj21's actions, I would still be posting there, they would still be offering my software at a 20% discount, and this site wouldn't exist.

[moo321]

The distinction I make with Jacobson is how foolish he is with his info. I'll be honest, if one casino offered me $20k to come in and review a tape of a play and tell them what happened, I'd consider it. But I sure as hell wouldn't post it on the internet, including descriptions of how to recognize this play, and protect against it. Grosjean never did that. In fact, I made one fairly innocuous procedural comment on bjinfo years ago, and he asked me to take it down, because APs shouldn't discuss procedures in public.

Even worse, he's just giving this info away to the dark side: he doesn't get paid for that site. I doubt he makes $200k a year doing consulting. There's no point to it, it's like he gets a boner from giving away secrets.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.