In http://blackjackforumonline.com/cont...nt_Indices.htm there is no listed index for surrendering 88 v A.
Should I use the hard 16 index?
Or should I always split in S17 and always surrender in H17?
In http://blackjackforumonline.com/cont...nt_Indices.htm there is no listed index for surrendering 88 v A.
Should I use the hard 16 index?
Or should I always split in S17 and always surrender in H17?
For Hi-Lo, Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack also has no index for S17, but TC = -5 for H17, so you should indeed split for S17 and surrender for H17 (both plays from Basic Strategy). I would like a compromise strategy comprising S17 and H17 (surrendering all 16s vs. Ace) but am not certain how much it would cost e.g. to surrender (8,8) vs. A for S17, particularly for positive counts. A similar example is Surrender 15 vs. Ace. Maybe Don will chime in.
Agreed, and since surrendering reduces variance, I'm in general more inclined to surrender than to split, especially at high counts when the bets are high. The problem is, the surrender index for (8,8) vs. 10 is moderate, (so it is recommended for index play in many books and systems), but for (8,8) vs. Ace it is so high in S17 that it isn't even mentioned, whereas for H17 it's so low that even Basic Strategy demands it. There seems are large discrepancy between S17 and H17 there, as for 15 vs. Ace or 17 vs. Ace, too.Originally Posted by BJcountingmaster
I'm wondering if it's worth the effort to learn two different playing strategies for Surrender, one for S17 and one for H17 (many systems like Wong's benchmark or Colin Jones or KO count use a compromise strategy or just use S17, as if it still were the standard nowadays), or just take the H17 rather than S17, since the majority of low-stakes games is H17 and I won't likely be able to play any S17 game for less than $25 min, being a "red chipper". Or if the loss for applying H17 strategy to S17 game is negligible anyway. I must have once more a look into BJA3...
Last edited by PinkChip; 01-01-2020 at 04:16 AM.
You should learn the both plays. H17 affects several plays with the Ace (and some vs. 6), so it definitely pays to make the distinction. After all, this isn't rocket science, and the numbers are correct. Surrendering in this situation is simply very different for H17 compared to S17. With S17, e.v. for splitting is -36% -- so nowhere near the -50% needed to surrender. With H17, e.v. is -51+%, and so you surrender. The difference is 15% between the two!
Trust the math, and play correctly.
Don
Thanks Don! But these numbers are for Basic Strategy (?). The question is, what is the situation e.g. for TC = 4? What are the costs for surrendering versus splitting (8, 8) vs. Ace when S17 rule applies? (Maybe it's contained in BJA3 but I read it in 2012 and don't remember such details by heart).
(8,8) vs. Ace , S17, LS of course, and let's assume 6 decks, 75% pen, DOA, DAS and RSA. I guess it must be simulated, and the HiLo index is so high that surrendering would still cost too much, even for TC 4, so splitting is the choice for any realistic count.
Last edited by PinkChip; 01-01-2020 at 10:40 AM.
88 v A in S17 is always a split. Indexes come into play when the expectation between two choices is pretty chose. Here we have a loss of half your bet (surrendering) return -0.5 vs a loss of only 35% of your bet return -0.35. Not close at all. So you just always split.
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