An Appeal to Maturity

[Ptc]

Yep. I feel the same way-and have wanted to say something for some time. But much better coming from a senior member. And thanks for bringing up the topic. Unchecked attacks and hostility create an environment where newer members like myself are reticent to post any question at all.

The best remedy really is to endeavor to be above it. Even when someone calls you out.

As a wise man once said, if you wrestle with a pig you both end up covered in shit—But the pig don’t care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DSchles]

The problem with appeals such as mine is that they usually stir up some sentiment for everyone to "behave" for a while, but the climate of civility simply doesn't last very long. In short, those who had been offending don't take too long to relapse into old habits.

And so, for the "peace" to be everlasting, there really need to be moderators who serve as keepers of that peace. In the end, a decision to do something like that is at the sole discretion of the site owner.

Don

[Norm]

I have never seen a forum that has seen everlasting peace -- unless you call the death of the forum everlasting peace. Therein lies the problem. This is, by far, the most active AP forum. Periodically, some of the chaff must be cut. When that happens, I am accused of the most vile crimes on numerous fora by sick people. I get screaming phone calls accusing me of depraved acts. Fora that allow libel as it brings traffic. These cowardly people use my real name while hiding their own identities. The same is true of many fora. Even Wikipedia has this problem. (Fortunately, they have funds and lawyers.)

My point is that conversation cannot exist in a sterile environment. Yes, we must cull the herd now and again. But, we can't stifle discussion too much. There must exist a middle ground. Having said that, I have been accelerating suspensions and will continue that acceleration.

[DSchles]

But, we can't stifle discussion too much.

Not suggesting anything beyond systematically deleting every post with name-calling and personal attacks. When those posts disappear almost immediately, and the poster asks himself why his post is gone, don't you think the message will be received?

Don

[Norm]

Doesn't appear so.

[BoSox]

Not suggesting anything beyond systematically deleting every post with name-calling and personal attacks. When those posts disappear almost immediately, and the poster asks himself why his post is gone, don't you think the message will be received?

Don

Doesn't appear so.

Don is right on the money. His idea requires consistency without exceptions which the board has never seen before. Members see exceptions to the rules all the time and make the mistake of thinking they will also get more leeway.

[Norm]

BoSox, you would have been permanently banned under that philosophy. And clearly, you have not asked yourself why so many of your posts have been deleted. The first forum I admined was around 40 years ago on the ARPANET, long before the web existed. I have a little experience in this area. If you don't like the forum, go away. Meanwhile, this is the most active AP forum and I intend to keep it that way because a dead forum can't grow.

This is a forum, not an "ask the guru" site. A forum is for discussion among members. Discussions will bring disagreement. Disagreement can be good. I will not delete every diagreeable post. I will delete posts that cross a line and I will suspend or ban members that prove to be disruptive. I use Wikipedia as an example. They have rules about comportment. Those rules are broken every day because users are human and humans are imperfect. But, there comes a point when the community decides someone is a net negative to the project.

There is one thing that is unforgivable. Libel. Anyone that posts anything libelous about another person is gone forever. Sadly, other sites allow this.

[Counting_Is_Fun]

It had both paid pages and a free page. I posted liberally to both. Ultimately, Viktor wasn't happy with that, because if you had access to me for free, why bother to pay a subscription fee? I guess that was my fault.

Don

To me, the answer is pretty simple...paid subscription. Many offending posters here have never paid for any forum!!
With Don's deleting of nonsense, or attacking posts then I think it would grow very fast. With people who belong, while weeding out the chaff. Where can I pay to sign up?
I have tried quite a few times to direct everyone to Norm's paid area of the forum, but nobody agreed. Thus we find ourselves here.

[Norm]

I awoke this morn to find eight reported posts in my inbox and a rather large number of attack posts most of which have been removed. Three members have been suspended (and three additional spammers banned) so we can get back to discussing AP. Likely they will go elsewhere and talk about how they were banned as part of a deep state conspiracy or some other nonsense instead of reflecting on their own disruptive behavior. If and when they return, we will see if they have realized that perhaps they were suspended for their own actions -- not because of a paranoia induced belief that there are some oddball, backroom machinations designed to alter the social order of the world.

There is a difficult balance between a raucous, wild west environment and an austere, puritanical, spartan environment. The first turns a forum into useless frothing at the mouth. The latter assures the slow death of a forum. The attempt here will always entail an effort at maintaining a middle ground where legitimate criticism is frequent, but personal, and particularly libelous, attacks are squelched. I was extremely reluctant to start this forum, as many know. I did so because the other forums allow members to spread constant, unfiltered, outright lies about others and I wanted a site where we could talk about AP. Running a no hold barred wrestling match is easy. You never get paranoid accusations when you ban someone if you don't ban anyone. You can spend your time putting casino ads on the site and make money while members squabble, raising more traffic to your ads. Sorry, if that's what you want, this site is not for you.

[BoSox]

BoSox, you would have been permanently banned under that philosophy.

With you running the show I agree. Under the right management, I would have had no problems and no post deleted. For the most part, I get along civilly with the membership with all the usual small gripes. Many of my deletions of posts by you had to do with giving house policy feedback concerns that you simply ignored. You know there is a HUGE difference between an owner/moderator toeing the line by only using strict enforcement of rules, and someone else who accomplished the exact same goal because of the respect of the membership. Real respect is earned.

[Norm]

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Every post of yours that has been deleted contained personal attacks against another member. I do not delete attacks against me or the site. You can find huge numbers of them here. Remember the calls you have made to me repeatedly apologizing for your behavior here.

[BoSox]

Remember the calls you have made to me repeatedly apologizing for your behavior here.

Only one call made to purchase your software and I did apologize for saying the same Verite software joke that I said today on the announcements page. The fact remains that you are in charge and that I do understand the meaning.

[ZeeBabar]

Only one call made to purchase your software and I did apologize for saying the same Verite software joke that I said today on the announcements page. The fact remains that you are in charge and that I do understand the meaning.

Bosox, drop it I suggest.