Counting Cards in Connecticut

[21forme]

Another cheap shot at Zee. By the way, Zee never claimed to be giving advice on blackjack. He mostly has just shared his own experiences.

He posts in a dogmatic style as if he's an expert. As Bosox said, with all the new posters recently, it helps to clarify his prowess.

And this is so typical coming from a crackpot who's been red chipping for 30+ years and trolls multiple forums daily. Congrats again on getting banned from WoV yesterday for your trolling, posting a message out of the blue, after many years of inactivity, suggesting that KJ should be reinstated there. Why haevn't you told Norm the same thing?

[BoSox]

So more spread increases EV, increased EV decreases RoR, but more spread increases variance and thus RoR again... ;-)

PinkChip, the key is to be properly bankrolled to be playing with a low ROR. Under that scenario, you will welcome all the positive variance opportunity chances that come your way. Any significant upward or down positions in your bankroll require adjustments to your bets so you always stay to a low ROR. Some of the new players starting out also need to understand when building a decent bankroll unless they have other sources for replenishing should reinvest 100% of their winnings early on in their playing careers. I know that is not what many of you want to hear but otherwise drawing out from a playing bank early on that you are trying to build is going to put your chance of ROR through the roof.

[PinkChip]

100% agreed. So my main problem is that my salary currently is not enough to build up sufficient bankroll or replenish (unfortunately the salaries of several employees were recently shortened by my boss). And life is not getting cheaper. Seems that I can forget about starting casino play at least this year. Anyway I still need lots of practice time to prepare for real play. Really frustrating to watch as game conditions seem getting worse year after year.

[Midwest Player]

MWP, as you already know many new players are now members on this site and can be easily influenced by others for the better or worse. Let's just say Zee's style is often unique and he follows his own coarse and ideas which may indeed work for him but the sample size is very small coming from only one person. Everyone has different playing styles and betting levels, comportment and new players should know this. 21forme was giving a public service message, and, for good or bad he should be commended for giving another perspective which the new guys can judge over a period of time for themselves.

Bullshit! He was taking a cheap shot at Zee.

[21forme]

Bullshit! He was taking a cheap shot at Zee.

Nothing to do when you're not shoveling your roof? Stop trolling!

[BoSox]

Bullshit! He was taking a cheap shot at Zee.

MWP, you are the same person who told another poster that was writing trip reports from my area of the country to ignore me who I asked him if he could delete the part about pen levels on an open forum. Something by the way that I would never do. I was later accused of being greedy by a few people who do not even know me.

[Midwest Player]

Hmmm, here is the problem for me as a beginner counter (not yet in casino, maybe next year) with little bankroll:

The most intimidating for me is volatility and losing streaks detrimental to at least trip bankroll, and thus uncertainty. I mainly practised 6 deck shoe in CV so far, and am clearly behind (approx. 1 or 2 standard deviations). Went down from 1100 to 400 in only about 3 shoes recently, spreading 5 to 50 (1:10 spread), then only recovered to 600.

The idea is a bankroll of 5000 (100 max bets) in the 6 deck case, so when I go down from 1000 to 0 and lose a short trip bankroll, I have only 4000 overall bankroll left and actually have to size down my max bet to 40 dollars (but 5 to 40 is only 1:8 spread, thus even less EV).

Thus I considered trying double deck, 1:5 spread from 5 to 25 dollars, for heat reasons. Then 100 max bets would only require a total bankroll of 2500, or is it still 5000 = 1000 min bets? I will buy CVCX soon in order to answer such questions.

The point is, you say DD is more volatile because the TC changes more rapidly. But in shoe games I have to wait longer for high TCs and good betting opportunities, and need a larger spread and max bet, which IMHO makes shoe games more volatile than pitch games (?). If available, this is to some degree flattened by Late Surrender in shoe games.

Here are my thoughts on double deck vs 6 deck games. (Yeah, my personal choice is double deck games)

First, learn to play what is available in your area. Don't learn double deck stuff if your only choice is a $50 min double deck game when you can play a $10 min 6 deck game especially if you are just a beginner with a small bankroll. Most double deck games have higher mins than 6 deck games. However, it is easier to spot a counter at DD than 6 deck, but many places don't care much about red chippers. Also what BoSox said is true that a lot of six deck games will offer surrender while very seldom will you find a two deck game that offers surrender. Surrender is much more important to a card counter than a basic strategy player.

Now if I remember correctly in looking at Finer Tuner's SCORE of blackjack games in Vegas, at the top of the list each month were almost all double deck games. You can win with just a 1 to 6 spread on a double deck game. If you have $5 min DD games in your area go for it and get some experience under your belt. You need real live casino experience.

There are a lot of $5 min DD games in the Midwest especially away from the big cities and out in the sticks. In fact, you can even find $3 min DD games. I know of a casino in Wisconsin that caters to double deck players. They offer something like one six deck game and 8 double deck games. I once asked them why they had so many double deck games and they answered we try to give the players what they want. At a $5 to $30 betting level and a $5,000 bankroll your risk of ruin is only about 3% with a $5 to $30 spread. I doubt they would even blink an eye. Take $500 for a trip bankroll and if you lose it come home. Trip risk for a $500 bankroll is about 7.6% assuming DD game $5 to $30 spread, 60% pen, and 4 hours of play. Expected win will just be a little better than min wage per hour.

[PinkChip]

Thanks Midwest Player for your hints! Some of them I already knew (e.g. hard to find Late Surrender in DD games, and probably S17 and DAS is also rare, and in Reno often Double on 10/11 only). But it is always necessary to scout the conditions locally. And here lies my biggest problem: since living in Europe, I would have to make a longer vacation in the US to get started in card counting. Two weeks is certainly not enough for getting into N0... I would have to come several times at least. However, I have no ambitions in making a living from blackjack, I just want to have some fun but with serious attempt to winning over time, because I am very strong into science and mathematics.

For this reason, I have to practice for both two deck and six decks, because I cannot yet know the games I will encounter. Actually I am practicing against any number of decks, since I have 4-, 6- and 8-deck shoes and discard trays at home (for physical training) and have set up 6 decks and recently 2 decks in Casino Verite.

Regarding pitch games, I have the problem of not having a clear idea on how the cards are really dealt (face up/down) and how the playing procedure is (scratching, tossing and all that stuff, and when I can count every card). I have never seen a DD game for real and most movies show only shoe games, which I know much better, and are easier to understand since all cards are dealt face up (CV says sometimes the double down card is dealt face down but I guess mostly it is dealt face up and perpendicular to the other cards of the player hand).

[Purplemoon]

It's hot in Vegas even when it snows... I still wake up with colds sweats to the shouts in my dreams of "checks play!!" and taps on the shoulder and treacle-sweet pit bosses telling me "You can't play no more blackjack"...

[Midwest Player]

Thanks Midwest Player for your hints! Some of them I already knew (e.g. hard to find Late Surrender in DD games, and probably S17 and DAS is also rare, and in Reno often Double on 10/11 only). But it is always necessary to scout the conditions locally. And here lies my biggest problem: since living in Europe, I would have to make a longer vacation in the US to get started in card counting. Two weeks is certainly not enough for getting into N0... I would have to come several times at least. However, I have no ambitions in making a living from blackjack, I just want to have some fun but with serious attempt to winning over time, because I am very strong into science and mathematics.

For this reason, I have to practice for both two deck and six decks, because I cannot yet know the games I will encounter. Actually I am practicing against any number of decks, since I have 4-, 6- and 8-deck shoes and discard trays at home (for physical training) and have set up 6 decks and recently 2 decks in Casino Verite.

Regarding pitch games, I have the problem of not having a clear idea on how the cards are really dealt (face up/down) and how the playing procedure is (scratching, tossing and all that stuff, and when I can count every card). I have never seen a DD game for real and most movies show only shoe games, which I know much better, and are easier to understand since all cards are dealt face up (CV says sometimes the double down card is dealt face down but I guess mostly it is dealt face up and perpendicular to the other cards of the player hand).

I didn't know you were in Europe. The fact that you are in Europe would certainly change any advice I would give you. I noticed you have been a member of this forum since 2012 but have yet to play in an actual live casino. I find that a little strange. Is it because most casinos have csm machines in Europe? Anyway, my first advice would be to get some actual real live casino play even if its on csm machines. Yeah, it may cost you a few bucks. Consider it part of the cost of learning.

I think the cost and expenses of any trip to the USA from Europe is going to far out way any blackjack losses you will have. And the expenses of such a trip will almost certainly cause your trip to be a losing one especially playing low limits.

I will share my losses with you for my last several years. Most of my play has been at double deck, but some single deck and 6 deck is also included in the mix. I play mostly at the red chip level, but sometimes at the green chip level especially at single deck. My double deck play is mostly at $5 or $10 min games. Sometimes I play two hands at at time, sometimes just one. If I play two hands I have to double table min. My spread mostly would be to max $80 to $100, but depending on the casino I may spread as high as two hands at table max. These super max bets are far and few. They don't happen very often.
2019 average loss $307. Average session length 5.7 hours
2018 average loss $384. Average session length 6.0 hours
2017 average loss $445. Average session length 6.3 hours
2016 average loss $405. Average session length 4.7 hours
All of these years were winning years at blackjack. Well, 2019 isn't over yet, so don't know how 2019 will turn out, but as of right now it is still in the black. My largest one day loss over these 4 years was $1,391. On the other hand my largest one day win over these 4 years was $1,806.

[PinkChip]

1.) Yes, of course CSMs were the main reason, along with other European chicanes: ENHC, sometimes doubling on 9 10 11 only, entrance fees and having to show ID just to be allowed to set your foot in the casino!

2.) I had a four or five year break from bj because I studied once again in addition to job (took another professional direction), so absolutely no time. This phase is over now.

3.) I had already tried several European casinos during holiday trips, in order to get used to casino atmosphere, but it was too costly:

Dec 2008: Davos, Switzerland. 10 CHF entrance fee and 10 CHF (CHF = USD approx.) min bet were too high for my taste. Bought in for 10 chips = 100 CHF and played BS against CSM, after 1 hour or about 100 hands had lost all chips. Had impression that the dealer got too many Tens as upcards, but couldn't verify it.

Nov 2010: Tenerife, Spain. Again CSM, again bought in for ten minimum chips, thus time 5 EUR each. Lost these 50 Euros in about 1 hour or 100 hands, playing perfect BS, so again the house edge seemed to be 10 or 20 times higher than theoretically. For instance, the dealer got his five expected naturals during this hour. I got only one natural, which was of course neutralised by one of the dealer naturals, so I never received a 3:2 bonus payout. This does never happen when I'm practicing in Casino Verite or with real cards and play 100 hands. Btw. the other players were ploppies and lost much faster. I was the only player still sitting at the table after one hour without having to re-buy. An old retired man bought in for 600 Euros and was bankrupt after half an hour. He urged "Eighteen, you have eighteen!" trying to convince me not to hit Soft 18 vs. a high dealer upcard. A young guy wanted to impress his girlfriend and quickly lost two buy-ins of 200 Euros each. Ploppies all around...

[Midwest Player]

Okay, it does look like you have some actual casino playing experience. You never mentioned what part of Europe you are from or how easy it is to travel from one country to another. You should do what I do and call all the casinos and get their betting limits, rules, and if they offer any non csm machines. It is much cheaper than going there in person.

Here is a link to a report on non csm casino in London. I have no idea if its true, but the post appears to be only one months old.
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackjack/c...les_in_london/

Here is video from Hippodrome Casino in London on how to play blackjack. The game looks like a regular casino shoe not a csm, but there is no discard tray so don't know what to make of it.
https://www.hippodromecasino.com/hip...ino/blackjack/

[PinkChip]

Interesting video. I know Leicester Square in London (famous for its cinema) but have not been there for many years.

Well, I anyway cannot travel much for financial and time constraints, so I just look around for casinos when I am on vacation anyway.
For instance, I was to Tenerife for a beach vacation. In 2011 I was to Dubrovnik (Croatia) for the same reason. There was a casino having pictures on the web showing dealer shoes, but when I came there at about 8 p.m. in the evening after a long beach day and was already tired, they still had no blackjack table open. Maybe I could have asked them to open a table but it was so intimidating since I was the only customer entering the casino and I think they wanted me to show ID at the cashiers desk just for entering. This is so discouraging because I surely don't want to play rated and be registered in case i get kicked out of the casino for counting. Besides, it was in Eastern Europe and I dont know if I can trust them, might get barred or be cheated.
It's completely different from entering a crowded casino in the US and just blend in with the other people, which is not intimidating I guess. Whenever I entered one of these European casinos, I was nervous and my heart pounded, I felt being observed despite not even trying to count (anyway useless due to CSMs). I just didn't like the whole atmosphere, it was so stiff. Often these casinos also have dress codes like wearing a suit or tie, which I also don't like.