Double Deck 60% Pen

[Counting_Is_Fun]

I used to play a game like that, except it was DAS instead of NDAS. NDAS really messes it up, IMO. But I'd spread 2x1 to 2x6 up to 2x12 (based on conditions) and it's pretty good. If you're going to play it, IMO then you should just blast away, because you're not going to make any money with a small spread. I would just sim the game, determine what is the minimum you're willing to play it for, then go play it at those stakes/spread.

RS thanks for the response...but really a 1X12...much less a 2X12 isn't going to work in most places with DD

[refinery]

IMO, you play DD for the low n0 and EV. I ran a quick sim and the game doesn't look bad, but the n0 is 25k or so. Why take on the heat of a DD game to play that? To eat all the negatives? You can craft a solid 6D game just by sitting out some rounds, reducing the n0, and keeping a lower profile. No reason to play the DD. If you want to play that specific DD, find a different edge on it.

[cc12b]

[quote=Counting_Is_Fun;272482]Double Deck 60% Pen[/quote]

most dealers cutting off about .8

Which one is correct? I would stay away from 60%

[DSchles]

[QUOTE=cc12b;272947]

Double Deck 60% Pen[/quote]

Which one is correct? I would stay away from 60%

They're the same thing! 60% of 2 is 1.2. 2 - 1.2 = 0.8 cut off.

Don

[cc12b]

Thanks Don. I was confuse, you make it clear. Cut off is flip side of pen.

[PinkChip]

Yes, similar to: if p is the "hit" probability, then 1-p is the "miss" probability in a binomial distribution, or another example: for true count conversion, either look directly at the shoe to determine the "number of decks remaining", or look at the discard tray to determine the counterpart "number of decks played" and subtract it from the total number of decks.

[RS]

RS thanks for the response...but really a 1X12...much less a 2X12 isn't going to work in most places with DD

I would always play 2 hands. It also depended on conditions. If it's a Friday night and the place is packed, floor is super busy, then yeah, I'm spreading a lot. If it's a Tuesday afternoon and there isn't much going on, I'm going to be spreading less and being more cautious. Some floormen are cool, some aren't. If I go up to the table and they ask for players card, I say no, they say ok good luck and walk away.....compared to them asking for players card, I say no, they keep pressing me on, I say no thanks, then they hang around for a while....also considering how busy the place is (or if there's big action somewhere else), my play could be drastically different.

What I did is I simmed a bunch of different conditions in DD (pen, some rules [but most were all the same rules], spread, and unit size) and then when I played, I knew the bare minimum I'd be willing to play (EV) as well as maximum I'd be comfortable playing to (risk). For example....

50% pen, HU: 2x25 to 2x150
66%+ pen, HU: 2x25 to 2x100

50% pen, 1-2 other players: 2x25 to 2x200
66% pen w/ 1-2 players: 2x25 to 2x150

50% pen, 3+ other players: Don't play
66%+ pen, 3+ other players: 2x25 to 2x200

75% pen, 3+ other players, 2x25 to 2x150

Then the same thing for a 2x$50 min bet as well as 2x$75 min bet. EG: I wouldn't spread 2x25-2x100 (4x) on 50% HU, but I would do 2x50-2x200 (4x) on 50% HU.

It's also important to know what your maximum bets can be. So do the same thing, but instead of "what's the minimum I'm willing to play for?" ask "What is the maximum [risk] I'm willing to play to?"

I don't remember all the numbers now since I haven't played in forever, but that was my general thought process. I figured I was willing to play something worth $100 per 100 rounds as a minimum and if what I was playing was worth $200 or $300+ per 100 rounds, then that's just gravy.


Of course 2x12 isn't going to be allowed at a lot of places, but if/when it is allowed, I sure as hell would be playing that much. No reason not to. But I also treated card counting differently than others, since I just did it in my spare time when I was bored, putting in a few hours here and there, because I was doing other types of AP. So if I got backed off somewhere, it wasn't that big of a deal since most of my income was coming from other forms of AP. Naturally, everyone is in different circumstances and have to play accordingly. Risk tolerance, bankroll, willingness to play (for lower EV stuff), expenses and/or other income, ability or inability to travel, etc. are all going to play a role in how aggressive someone plays.

[Counting_Is_Fun]

I would always play 2 hands. It also depended on conditions. If it's a Friday night and the place is packed, floor is super busy, then yeah, I'm spreading a lot. If it's a Tuesday afternoon and there isn't much going on, I'm going to be spreading less and being more cautious. Some floormen are cool, some aren't. If I go up to the table and they ask for players card, I say no, they say ok good luck and walk away.....compared to them asking for players card, I say no, they keep pressing me on, I say no thanks, then they hang around for a while....also considering how busy the place is (or if there's big action somewhere else), my play could be drastically different.

What I did is I simmed a bunch of different conditions in DD (pen, some rules [but most were all the same rules], spread, and unit size) and then when I played, I knew the bare minimum I'd be willing to play (EV) as well as maximum I'd be comfortable playing to (risk). For example....

50% pen, HU: 2x25 to 2x150
66%+ pen, HU: 2x25 to 2x100

50% pen, 1-2 other players: 2x25 to 2x200
66% pen w/ 1-2 players: 2x25 to 2x150

50% pen, 3+ other players: Don't play
66%+ pen, 3+ other players: 2x25 to 2x200

75% pen, 3+ other players, 2x25 to 2x150

Then the same thing for a 2x$50 min bet as well as 2x$75 min bet. EG: I wouldn't spread 2x25-2x100 (4x) on 50% HU, but I would do 2x50-2x200 (4x) on 50% HU.

It's also important to know what your maximum bets can be. So do the same thing, but instead of "what's the minimum I'm willing to play for?" ask "What is the maximum [risk] I'm willing to play to?"

I don't remember all the numbers now since I haven't played in forever, but that was my general thought process. I figured I was willing to play something worth $100 per 100 rounds as a minimum and if what I was playing was worth $200 or $300+ per 100 rounds, then that's just gravy.


Of course 2x12 isn't going to be allowed at a lot of places, but if/when it is allowed, I sure as hell would be playing that much. No reason not to. But I also treated card counting differently than others, since I just did it in my spare time when I was bored, putting in a few hours here and there, because I was doing other types of AP. So if I got backed off somewhere, it wasn't that big of a deal since most of my income was coming from other forms of AP. Naturally, everyone is in different circumstances and have to play accordingly. Risk tolerance, bankroll, willingness to play (for lower EV stuff), expenses and/or other income, ability or inability to travel, etc. are all going to play a role in how aggressive someone plays.

RS thanks for the reply. Yes My thought process is mostly the same as yours here regarding DD.
If it's not at least close to $100 per hour then I am not really interested. But it really depends on that pen, and number of players etc.
Curious...why do you say definitely play 2 hands? Even heads up? To increase your EV? To reduce NO? To drop to 1 hand when the count tanks?

[RS]

RS thanks for the reply. Yes My thought process is mostly the same as yours here regarding DD.
If it's not at least close to $100 per hour then I am not really interested. But it really depends on that pen, and number of players etc.
Curious...why do you say definitely play 2 hands? Even heads up? To increase your EV? To reduce NO? To drop to 1 hand when the count tanks?

I would just always play 2 hands. I don't know when/if it's optimal to play 1 hand or 2 hands, but 2 hands of the same spread is gonna be higher EV than 1 hand, so I just always did 2 hands. For EV, and yeah, always heads up. It probably reduces the N0 and all that stuff, but to be honest I really don't remember if that was a factor, but probably somewhat.

I wouldn't drop to 1 hand. I would only potentially do that if the count was super low, in which case, you're probably pretty far into the shoe and only have another round or 2 to go. As obvious and easy it is to spot someone counting, I wouldn't want to make their job any easier.

Also, it makes my "system" easier to follow. I also (obviously) tracked my results, and part of that was which spread/ramp/unit size I was playing. To do the same thing but to add in the potential to drop to 1 hand in low negatives, a lot more effort than it's worth, since it means I'd have to re-do every sim I ran. Sometimes ya just can't drop to 1 hand because players will go apeshit. I don't want to cause a commotion and even though "There are other players at the table?" should be followed to an extent, you also have to realize it may be better to just give up an extra $1-$2 in EV occasionally to be able to fly under the radar a little bit more.


That's all just my opinion and how I approached the game. I don't care to be 100% perfect. I'd rather keep it simple and get 95% out of the game than do complicated stuff and get 100% out of it.

[cc12b]

I understand the N0 is the number of rounds you seen not the number of hands you played. The rounds you sit there but you bet zero dollars is counted toward N0. Please correct me if I was wrong.

[refinery]

I understand the N0 is the number of rounds you seen not the number of hands you played. The rounds you sit there but you bet zero dollars is counted toward N0. Please correct me if I was wrong.

You're obviously correct. Why post it here?

[Counting_Is_Fun]

I would just always play 2 hands. I don't know when/if it's optimal to play 1 hand or 2 hands, but 2 hands of the same spread is gonna be higher EV than 1 hand, so I just always did 2 hands. For EV, and yeah, always heads up. It probably reduces the N0 and all that stuff, but to be honest I really don't remember if that was a factor, but probably somewhat.

I wouldn't drop to 1 hand. I would only potentially do that if the count was super low, in which case, you're probably pretty far into the shoe and only have another round or 2 to go. As obvious and easy it is to spot someone counting, I wouldn't want to make their job any easier.

Also, it makes my "system" easier to follow. I also (obviously) tracked my results, and part of that was which spread/ramp/unit size I was playing. To do the same thing but to add in the potential to drop to 1 hand in low negatives, a lot more effort than it's worth, since it means I'd have to re-do every sim I ran. Sometimes ya just can't drop to 1 hand because players will go apeshit. I don't want to cause a commotion and even though "There are other players at the table?" should be followed to an extent, you also have to realize it may be better to just give up an extra $1-$2 in EV occasionally to be able to fly under the radar a little bit more.


That's all just my opinion and how I approached the game. I don't care to be 100% perfect. I'd rather keep it simple and get 95% out of the game than do complicated stuff and get 100% out of it.

Thanks RS, some good info. I see DD mostly the same as you do.

[Midwest Player]

what's with this master stuff? sounds weird.

the answer here is that it's a worthwhile game but it's all about hands per hour. you want to be heads up, ideally, and blazing through hands.

Ah, the masters stuff.