Value of Comps

[Midwest Player]

Do you ever bother to check just how much your comps are worth? I truly believe at the red chip level it would be impossible to win without any comps. Expenses would eat up any profit you manage to squeeze out at the blackjack table.

Here is a case in point. On my last two night blackjack trip, I received comp values worth about $350. It included comped rooms for two nights some meal comps and some free play. I played 15 hours of blackjack and over that time period made a little over $32 an hour. This was probably slightly better than expected value considering the shitty game I was playing. Then add other expenses not covered by comps like gas expense and the entire trip would have only been slightly better than break even without the comps. Now this could have easily been a losing trip in the same amount and in that case it would have cost almost a thousand dollars without any comps.

At the red chip level, comps are important and can be the difference between making a profit or not. Red chippers can often get away with things that might not be tolerated at higher betting levels.

Like last year every blackjack trip I made in Oct saw some snow on at least one leg of the trip. There was no accumulation on the roads, but flurries in the air. In traveling thru the snow belt regions there was patchy snow on the ground on one trip.

It is suppose to snow on 5 out of the next 7 days so I just maybe calling it quits for the year. It all depends on the weather, but almost always after Nov 15th you will have snow on at least one leg of a trip.

[Scrum]

I love snow

[RUMIYODIN]

BLUF: Ask yourself what are your goals and future plans.

Your goals are a major consideration in this too. I play at the red chip level, concluding most trips break even or at a slight profit considering expenses.

For me, this is enough. My trips aren't focused around BJ but rather visiting the general areas. Playing the game is only meant to offset the costs of the trip, not the purpose of the trip itself.

I agree with you that at the red chip level comps is much more impactful than at other levels of play. A few hundred dollars in variance to a black chipper is essentially a few minimum bets, nothing to bat an eye over. Whereas for a red-chipper, this is his max bet sometimes several times over.

Whether comps is something you want to (or should) actively pursue also depends on future plans. If you plan to stay at that red chip level, never spreading much, then absolutely you should reap any EV+ benefit. If the joint is a slash and burn, or you ever plan on moving up to higher stakes at more aggressive level of play -- then getting that player's card is probably not a smart idea.

Again, it's all about what are you looking for out of the game and what you ultimately want from it.

I hope this sheds some light.

[ZeeBabar]

This whole forum and area is dominated by those who often stereotype and have developed beliefs that they don’t and have not tested in decades.

there can be a mixture of both playing with players card and playing anonymously. Some good pros do it. I played entirely with cards the first few years at red chip level and to this day, 6+ years later, I visit Las Vegas, MO, Tunica etc., staying comped in nice safe hotel rooms.

You can get players cards, learn to manage them, and as you progress, use them judiciously. I land in Las Vegas or Biloxi or Tunica, start out staying comped in one casino hotel. I will play anonymously and cautiously there. If it’s a losing session, “find” my card and book the loss. Other times/shifts, I play at that casino, using the card. Other casinos, I play anonymously even if I have their card. Sometimes, if heat is intense, I use the card (it dissipates heat quite well) but play a short session, leave within 30-40 minutes.

There is no absolute answer about using a players card or not. It’s playing style, where you play, what level you play, casino tolerance and more. I tend to agree with the both posts.

[RatherNotGiveMyRealName]

This is the thread I have been looking for. Thanks for bringing this topic up.

I have been adamantly told both yes and no to getting a player’s card. Originally, my thoughts were something like this: “Why identify myself? Why let them track me?” Every time I even considered getting a player’s card, I struck down the idea.

I can’t help but now think, “How much are the comps worth in EV? How much does a player’s card help with heat?”

All of this info helps and I appreciate it. My main question would be what would you guys recommend if I am looking to play at the same place for a long time and I’m a red to green chip player spreading 1-15 two hands, sometimes 1-7.5 depending on table minimum. Thanks so much.

[ZeeBabar]

This is the thread I have been looking for. Thanks for bringing this topic up.

I have been adamantly told both yes and no to getting a player’s card. Originally, my thoughts were something like this: “Why identify myself? Why let them track me?” Every time I even considered getting a player’s card, I struck down the idea.

I can’t help but now think, “How much are the comps worth in EV? How much does a player’s card help with heat?”

All of this info helps and I appreciate it. My main question would be what would you guys recommend if I am looking to play at the same place for a long time and I’m a red to green chip player spreading 1-15 two hands, sometimes 1-7.5 depending on table minimum. Thanks so much.

The answer is in some other threads on Players Card. If you play at the same place for a long time, with or without a Players Card, you are eventually likely to get backed off or counter measures will get taken. At some point, they will give you a name/identifier (if not using a Players Card) and track you. How long you last depends upon how often you play (several times a week, daily, etc.) and for how long you play. They will identify you as a card counter and then assess whether you are a winning card counter (most are not).

Now, playing more conservative spreads, I lasted 4-5 years at local casinos in red chip games, eventually getting noticed after playing a Green Chip DD games. I probably lasted that long because I started with a Players cards before I knew any deviations, underbetting and made lots of mistakes and they had me down as a ploppy. If you are an accomplished card counter, you may not last that long.

what I would suggest is to play short sessions, regularly book losses (down a bit, quit and return later) and keep win/loss sessions ratio from getting too far in your favor, check at Players Club desk for your won/loss record every couple of months, ensure it’s not accurate and not showing you have won too much, ratehole judiciously in small amounts, take some chips home instead of cashing out both your rathole and color up chips and return later to cash them, develop an act, make it look like you are a regular who stops by to pass time, chat with regulars, dealers, pit, be a likeable person etc. I used to say “this is better than a bar, I used to go to happy hour after work and here I can drink and not pay for it, sometimes even win!”

I think they have some algorithms that kick out names of Players card holders who both, lose a lot and win a lot on regular basis (former to offer more comps, latter for closer observation) as well as those who reach a cumulative win total that can vary with each casino and their tolerance level. The steps above help manage to stay under those limits or confuse them enough to let you last long.

In my view, newbie card counters have success in local casinos, start believing the casino is their ATM, start believing the pit has no clue and become ever more blatant and bold. The pit may be fooled but as long as they are logging your play, one day word comes down from upstairs. One day you walk in and the pit does not smile at you, look you in the eye, dealer seems in a bad mood and the end is near.

[RS]

There's a reason pros don't bet red chips.

[RatherNotGiveMyRealName]

There's a reason pros don't bet red chips.

I have no intention of being a pro. Just trying to make money playing blackjack as a long-term side hustle.

[RatherNotGiveMyRealName]

The answer is in some other threads on Players Card. If you play at the same place for a long time, with or without a Players Card, you are eventually likely to get backed off or counter measures will get taken. At some point, they will give you a name/identifier (if not using a Players Card) and track you. How long you last depends upon how often you play (several times a week, daily, etc.) and for how long you play. They will identify you as a card counter and then assess whether you are a winning card counter (most are not).

Now, playing more conservative spreads, I lasted 4-5 years at local casinos in red chip games, eventually getting noticed after playing a Green Chip DD games. I probably lasted that long because I started with a Players cards before I knew any deviations, underbetting and made lots of mistakes and they had me down as a ploppy. If you are an accomplished card counter, you may not last that long.

what I would suggest is to play short sessions, regularly book losses (down a bit, quit and return later) and keep win/loss sessions ratio from getting too far in your favor, check at Players Club desk for your won/loss record every couple of months, ensure it’s not accurate and not showing you have won too much, ratehole judiciously in small amounts, take some chips home instead of cashing out both your rathole and color up chips and return later to cash them, develop an act, make it look like you are a regular who stops by to pass time, chat with regulars, dealers, pit, be a likeable person etc. I used to say “this is better than a bar, I used to go to happy hour after work and here I can drink and not pay for it, sometimes even win!”

I think they have some algorithms that kick out names of Players card holders who both, lose a lot and win a lot on regular basis (former to offer more comps, latter for closer observation) as well as those who reach a cumulative win total that can vary with each casino and their tolerance level. The steps above help manage to stay under those limits or confuse them enough to let you last long.

In my view, newbie card counters have success in local casinos, start believing the casino is their ATM, start believing the pit has no clue and become ever more blatant and bold. The pit may be fooled but as long as they are logging your play, one day word comes down from upstairs. One day you walk in and the pit does not smile at you, look you in the eye, dealer seems in a bad mood and the end is near.

This is better info than I’ve read in some books, thank you. I go to this particular casino once a week on a random day. My session is usually me playing for a few hours, taking a break to eat, then playing for a few more hours and going home. If I’m up significantly (50-100 units depending on heat), I will cut the session short and go home. I play-all two hands leaving only on vastly negative counts (-3 or -4). I have some cover plays I have added in to my game as well:

-Always insure Blackjack
-Always stand Soft 18 vs 9, 10, A
-Always stand 16 vs 10
-Always double 9 vs 2
-Start the shoe with a bet as if it was a true 2 (one green chip for me) and go down to table minimum if I lose, repeat bet if count goes higher. Main concept is that I don’t like betting minimum ($5 or $10) off the top of a shoe. Seems counter-like.

Is there anything here you would change or any advice you would give me? Thanks so much for your time.

[21forme]

Now, playing more conservative spreads,

This topic has been discussed many times here. Which is better - playing a break-even game (or close to it) for several hours/day to get a room or meal comp, or play full-throttle for your full EV and pay for your room? IMO, the latter makes more sense. As a red chipper, it's going to take a long time to get a room offer, unless you're playing at a small low-roller joint, in which case you may be noticed even with your "polite" spread. As a green chipper, your EV is in the $100-200/hr range, so you'd be giving up several hundred in EV for your "free" room. Unless the comp is at the Four Seasons, I'd play unrated.

There's a reason pros don't bet red chips.

There's a reason part-time recreational players (with one exception) graduate to green (and even black) chips once they build their bankroll to a sufficient level.

[ZeeBabar]

This is better info than I’ve read in some books, thank you. I go to this particular casino once a week on a random day. My session is usually me playing for a few hours, taking a break to eat, then playing for a few more hours and going home. If I’m up significantly (50-100 units depending on heat), I will cut the session short and go home. I play-all two hands leaving only on vastly negative counts (-3 or -4). I have some cover plays I have added in to my game as well:

-Always insure Blackjack
-Always stand Soft 18 vs 9, 10, A
-Always stand 16 vs 10
-Always double 9 vs 2
-Start the shoe with a bet as if it was a true 2 (one green chip for me) and go down to table minimum if I lose, repeat bet if count goes higher. Main concept is that I don’t like betting minimum ($5 or $10) off the top of a shoe. Seems counter-like.

Is there anything here you would change or any advice you would give me? Thanks so much for your time.

I would drop those cover plays. They are costing you while providing little cover. If you observe, most ploppies at red chip tables start shoe with minimum bet. It again depends upon heat. You cannot be sitting at a red chip table getting paranoid about heat and using cover plays, it’s simply not worth it. You might do one occasionally if the pit personnel is standing at the table using an act. Generally, depending on the conditions and crowds, heat is not on red chip tables (unless another player is betting big). I don’t like using a Green Chips at a red chip table unless the bet is over $50 and then, may place 2 bets on 2 hands of $60 or $80, Green chips topped off by a red chip or two so a quick glance at the table by pit or others does not get their attention.

Instead of afternoon long sessions, is the casino too far from home to do short trips? What bothers me is the length of your session at a casino and consistently playing 2 hands at positive and one on negative plus wonging out. Depending on crowds and spots being played, covered with an act, you can vary between one and 2 spots on positive counts, just to “change the flow” of the game.

[21forme]

I would drop those cover plays. They are costing you while providing little cover. If you observe, most ploppies at red chip tables start shoe with minimum bet.

Excellent advice.

[ZeeBabar]

Excellent advice.

You made my day! Will try not to let it go to my head.