Adding AA78mTc side count to High Low

[seriousplayer]

I have more questions:

In previous post he said he recommends backcounting and using casino chips for side counting. Backcounting means standing behind a table and when the shoe is in your advantage you enter the game and play. So my question is how could he side count with casino chips standing behind the table doing 5m7c+AA89mTc+b side counts? Where would he put the casino chips to make three combinations standing behind the table? He going to use all his pockets or something? Ok, suppose he could do it for one table but how about backcounting using casino chips for two or more tables standing behind the table? He could do that sitting down but the pit boss could say: "If you are not playing you need to get up". I don't get it and I don't understand!! How could this technique be practical?

But don't worry...I will soon let you all know how my red 7 count plus 10 side counts will beat ALL of your useless level 3 counts!!!

To effectively attack the lucky ladies side bet you don't necessarily need the 10 side count. You need to understand why the 10 side count is most suitable count for the lucky ladies side bet. The reason is that it has a 100% insurance correlation. Using that concept you can find another count that has a 100% insurance correlation and use that for the lucky ladies side bet as well.

[bjanalyst]

I have more questions:
In previous post he said he recommends backcounting and using casino chips for side counting. Backcounting means standing behind a table and when the shoe is in your advantage you enter the game and play. So my question is how could he side count with casino chips standing behind the table doing 5m7c+AA89mTc+b side counts? Where would he put the casino chips to make three combinations standing behind the table? He going to use all his pockets or something? Ok, suppose he could do it for one table but how about backcounting using casino chips for two or more tables standing behind the table? He could do that sitting down but the pit boss could say: "If you are not playing you need to get up". I don't get it and I don't understand!! How could this technique be practical?

I will assume here that you have no problem in keeping the 5m7c in your head along with the KO count. Your problem is keeping the AA89mTc which is what I will review here.

You are talking about procedure here. I am sure that you can come up with many different techniques yourself but I have mentioned several techniques to simplify keeping AA89mTc. I will post these suggestions again here. Using these techniques AA89mTc is very simple to keep. I did not even give Carla any pointers on keeping AA89mTc and she just did it herself and she makes no mistakes. She keeps both counts in her head. And I taught my system to another counter and he had no problem in picking it up. Only in this forum have I had users continually say that my count is difficult and hard to keep.

Here are a couple of my suggestions to simplify keeping AA89mTc. The second suggestion eliminates chips altogether.

Update AA89mTc after all cards are on the table and before the player's play their hands - two Ten cards cancel out one Ace or and one Ten cancels one Eight or one Nine. Then calculate AA89mTs (s = cards seen during the current round). Alternately calculate AA89 seen on the table then start subtracting one for each Ten seen on the table and then calculate AA89mTs = AA89s - Ts. Add AA89mTs to the AA89mTc from the previous round to get an updated AA89mTc for the current round. Then continue to update the AA89mTc as cards are played to complete the player's and dealer's hands.

Using fingers of both hands to keep the AA89mTc: This can be used back counting or sitting at table. If AA89mTc = 8, for example, use one finger from your left hand pointing to your right wrist (+5) and then three fingers of your right hand extended (+3) which gives +8. If AA89mTc = (-12) then use two fingers from your right hand pointing to your left wrist (-10) plus two left fingers extended (-2) which gives (-12).
Keeping two side counts.jpg

[Gronbog]

Here is the final set of sim results. These add late surrender indices. All of the listed systems were re-run with late surrender. There are no results for the HiLo+AA78mTc variants because late surrender was never requested for those variants. I will not be running late surrender for those variants. These will be the final sim results.

Say what you will about the complexity of bjanalyst's systems (and I agree that they are complex), these final results show more than a trivial improvement in all of the tested scenarios over HiOpt II + ASC when late surrender is added. As pointed out in another thread, one can continue to add side counts to just about any system in order to achieve the goal of outperforming another given system. The issue will always end up being one of whether the additions to the system are practical and worth the extra effort.

Finally, I will repeat this: None of this is an endorsement from me of these or any other systems.

Scenario   System                   Source         SCORE        Delta
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Play-All 1-8
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        40.09
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        52.47        30.88%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        54.51         3.89%

Play-All 1-10
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        46.70
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        59.63        27.69%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        62.31         4.49%

Play-All 1-12
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        51.64
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        64.94        25.76%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        68.19         5.00%

Back-Count 1-1
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        65.56
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        75.42        15.04%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        81.17         7.62%

Back-Count 1-2
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        78.24
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        90.82        16.08%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        97.00         6.80%

Back-Count 1-4
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        86.06
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        98.80        14.80%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       106.16         7.45%

Back-Count 1-8
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        88.18
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog       102.08        15.76%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       109.45         7.22%

Back-Count 1-12
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        89.40
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog       102.94        15.15%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       110.83         7.66%

Unrestricted
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        90.01
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog       103.25        14.71%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       111.38         7.87%

[bjanalyst]

I would argue that: yes, there is a "right" answer here. Several actually!
-If one is to branch out to shoe games, consider increasing betting efficiency: HOII w BASC (if you want to play pitch games as well) or Wong Halves.

So you are suggesting Wong's Halves for a shoe game which is a complicated level 3 count. It has 99% BC but the PE is not good at all.

The users or this forum do not like my KO with AA89mTc and 5m7c primarily because of AA89mTc which they think is hard to use.

Also as correctly pointed out, for the shoe game, betting efficiency is more important than playing efficiency. AA89mTc helps with PE but if you want a simpler system then ignore AA89mTc and just use KO with 5m7c for the shoe game. You will lose a significant amount of playing strategy gain, mostly insurance and hit/stand on hard 12 v 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 but you will have ae much simpler system if just KO with 5m7c is used. If Lucky Ladies is offered, I would definitely keep AA89mTc with KO but assuming no side bets then consider just KO with 5m7c as a possible count system for the shoe game.

Again, I do not consider keeping AA89mTc hard, I posted some simplifying ways to keep AA89mTc, Carla has no problem with AA89mTc and another counter I taught it to had no problem with it. No one complained about KO with AA89mTc until I posted it on this forum and I am shocked that people on this forum think it is hard.

At any rate, if you want extreme simplicity then I would suggest the KO with 5m7c as the only side count. That is much simpler than Wong's Halves as there are two level one counts and the 5m7c is very simple and can be kept in your head and there are also some playing strategy gains from 5m7c mostly when player has a hard 15 and hard 16 for both hit/stand and surrender.

If surrender is offered, I believe that the KO with 5m7c will come close to the HO2 w ASC. And you have to admit the KO is simple and the 5m7c is simple and the KO with 5m7c system is simpler than Wong's Halves and HO2 w ASC.

KO with 5m7c absolutely will beat Wong's Halves and my prediction is that the KO with 5m7c will come close to HO2 w ASC for the back counted Late Surrender shoe game.

[refinery]

Here is the final set of sim results. These add late surrender indices. All of the listed systems were re-run with late surrender. There are no results for the HiLo+AA78mTc variants because late surrender was never requested for those variants. I will not be running late surrender for those variants. These will be the final sim results.

Say what you will about the complexity of bjanalyst's systems (and I agree that they are complex), these final results show more than a trivial improvement in all of the tested scenarios over HiOpt II + ASC when late surrender is added. As pointed out in another thread, one can continue to add side counts to just about any system in order to achieve the goal of outperforming another given system. The issue will always end up being one of whether the additions to the system are practical and worth the extra effort.

Finally, I will repeat this: None of this is an endorsement from me of these or any other systems.

Scenario   System                   Source         SCORE        Delta
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Play-All 1-8
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        40.09
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        52.47        30.88%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        54.51         3.89%

Play-All 1-10
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        46.70
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        59.63        27.69%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        62.31         4.49%

Play-All 1-12
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        51.64
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        64.94        25.76%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        68.19         5.00%

Back-Count 1-1
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        65.56
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        75.42        15.04%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        81.17         7.62%

Back-Count 1-2
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        78.24
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        90.82        16.08%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog        97.00         6.80%

Back-Count 1-4
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        86.06
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog        98.80        14.80%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       106.16         7.45%

Back-Count 1-8
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        88.18
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog       102.08        15.76%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       109.45         7.22%

Back-Count 1-12
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        89.40
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog       102.94        15.15%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       110.83         7.66%

Unrestricted
           HiLo Full Indices        Gronbog        90.01
           HiOpt II + ASC           Gronbog       103.25        14.71%
           KO+5m7c+AA89mTc+b sim 9  Gronbog       111.38         7.87%

I just don't understand how you can go about endorsing this system.

Posted 4/1

[refinery]

It's obvious this is the system ZenKinG should be using. Back count only. It's seriously worth it!

[Gronbog]

I just don't understand how you can go about endorsing this system

I specifically did not endorse it.

[seriousplayer]

Using fingers of both hands to keep the AA89mTc: This can be used back counting or sitting at table. If AA89mTc = 8, for example, use one finger from your left hand pointing to your right wrist (+5) and then three fingers of your right hand extended (+3) which gives +8. If AA89mTc = (-12) then use two fingers from your right hand pointing to your left wrist (-10) plus two left fingers extended (-2) which gives (-12).

You can use your fingers to keep a side count but is telegraphing. You think you are smart?? You are giving another message to casino that you are a card counter.

Here is what you suggested already and they all give casino a clue that you are a card counter:

1. Standing behind a table to backcount.
2. Side counting with casino chips.
3. Side counting with your fingers

Defeat the purpose of camouflage.

Keep telegraphing!!!

[seriousplayer]

KO with 5m7c absolutely will beat Wong's Halves and my prediction is that the KO with 5m7c will come close to HO2 w ASC for the back counted Late Surrender shoe game.

How can you make such a claim without doing a simulation to compare both counts? CVDATA is capable to simulation KO + 5m7c. Using 5m7c for betting.

[bjanalyst]

You can use your fingers to keep a side count but is telegraphing. You think you are smart?? You are giving another message to casino that you are a card counter.

Here is what you suggested already and they all give casino a clue that you are a card counter:

1. Standing behind a table to backcount.
2. Side counting with casino chips.
3. Side counting with your fingers

Defeat the purpose of camouflage.

You do not make it obvious with your finger count. And if the pit thinks you need your fingers to count they will think you are an idiot.

You are way too paranoid. And the camouflage I was talking about is the camouflage plays I explained previously which I will not repeat here.

If you think my system is difficult that is your problem, not mine. You just have to put in a little effort and practice. Just memorize the table of critical running counts (crc) and add and multiply small integers and compare to the crc and if the index is way off the table of critical running counts chart then use the fact that the true count distributes over linear combinations of counts, that is use tc(psrc) = tc(KO + k1*(5m7c) + k2*(AA89mTc)) = tc(KO) + k1*tc(5m79c) + k2*tc(AA89mTc) to derive simplified formulas when the Index for a particular playing strategy change is "off the charts". I already did this for you in previous exhibits that I posted.

So simulations now show that my KO system is more POWERFUL than the HO2 w ASC for no LS and LS for scenarios. And the other four advantages I look for in counts are ease of use, camouflage, accuracy (around true count of 4 and plus/minus side counts are exact whereas Ace side count is approximate since it involves estimating decks played) and help with side bets. My KO system beats the HO2 w ASC in power and the other four categories I just listed above. It is a better count system for the blackjack SHOE game.

It should be noted that I made these predictions all along. I made these prediction that KO with AA89mTc and 5m7c was more powerful than HO2 w ASC in my 3rd & 4th books both published BEFORE I ever posted on this forum. I based these predictions on weighted CC and betting CC.

Before I posted this system NO ONE I meet every said it was difficult.

The results have been posted. You have he proof and you still complain.

If you do not like it don't use it. Stick to HO2 w ASC or Wong's Halves.

[bjanalyst]

How can you make such a claim without doing a simulation to compare both counts? CVDATA is capable to simulation KO + 5m7c. Using 5m7c for betting.

EVERY SINGLE PREDICTION I MADE CAME TRUE, didn't it. I put my predictions out BEFORE the sims were done so if I was wrong hyou could have bashed me to no end. But I was correct EVERY SINGLE TIIME.

I based my predictions on weighted CC for playing efficiency and betting CC for betting efficiency. Using both together game me excellent prediction of what the simulations results would be.

I no one has found any errors in my formulas either. The compaints are that it is difficult. I simplied it for you but you still complain.

And my prediction is that the KO with 5m7c will beat Wong's Halves and for the back counted LS shoe game will come close to the HO2 w ASC. I can calculate weighted CC and we already knew the betting CC of KO + (1/2)*(5m7c) to make my prediction.

I did not do a full weighted CC of KO + k*(5m7c) but I can make preliminary predictions anyhow.

I will base my preliminary predictions on the SCOREs produced so far since I did not calculated weighted CC which is more accurate.

(5m7c) when used with the KO was the major help to the LS success of KO with AA89mTc and 5m7c. If no side bets and pure LS blackjack then taking away AA89mTc will hurt with your insurance and standing on hard 12 v 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. When AA78mTc was added to HL the gain in the SCORE was around 4. With LS the KO with AA89mTc and 5m7c has around 7 gain in the SCORE. Most of the LS gain was from 5m7c. So I can guess that take away AA89mTc and use only KO with 5m7c for the shoe LS back counted game will mean that the KO with 5m7c will come close to the HO2 w ASC and will absolutely beat Wong's Halves,

I know KO + k*(5m7c) will beat Wong's Halves because it has the same betting CC of 99% as does Wong's Halves but Wong's Halves has inferior playing efficiency and Wong' Halves will definitely lose to KO with 5m7c with LS also.

So I am assuming that you will agree that keeping the level one KO count and the level one 5m7c are simple to do and you can keep both counts I your head without using chips. I think you will agree that keeping KO with 5m7c is easier than the level 3 Wong's Halves and the level 2 HO2 w ASC. So the question is how does this simple system, that even you can use, perform.

So again my predictions are KO with 5m7c

(1) will beat Wong's Halves in LS and no LS and all scenarios

(2) come in close to HO2 w ASC for the back counted LS shoe game.

[DSchles]

If you aren't planning to sell your system for hundreds of dollars, would you please have the common courtesy to stop already. You haven't said a single new thing in a month, and you seem to be the kind of person who thinks that by repeating the same thing 50 times, you reinforce the strength of the statement. You don't; you weaken it.

So unless you have something NEW to say, which hasn't happened in a month, would you please do us all a favor and simply stop writing.

Don

[Norm]

Agree with Don. If you haven't convinced anyone else by what you are saying, you are just diluting the effectiveness of the site.

Thank you for your work and opinions. But, I'd like to concentrate on quality as opposed to quantity, and 900 posts on a subject that doesn't appear useful to folks here is quite a stretch.