The great mystery involving ASM, and can they be pre programed to cheat?

[mofungoo]

Given that info, it's obvious that the machine could be programed to do anything

That is possible, almost anything is possible. However, we here on this site deal in probabilities not possibilities, and the probabilities are near zero that a casino would hire someone to modify one of these machines to cheat. As you said, the mod would be discovered with dire consequences for the casino that did such a thing. The fact is that casinos are literally printing money and it would be highly unlikely that they would kill the goose that is laying golden eggs to make a relatively small amount by modifying a shuffling machine to cheat players.

[Norm]

No, that is far from obvious. With this kind of electro-mechanical device, the fact that it has a switch that does one thing does not mean that it can be easily reprogrammed to do another thing.

[hypercube]

I worry about anyone that believes math is an "extreme".

Maybe I can rough up some feathers or get banned. You can either choose to take my post as an attack or see it for its actually purpose, to encourage others to think more deeply about the game.

The math is not extreme, it can only do what is programmed, which to date has been a very basic approach to the game. The people who believe their present assumptions are the only way and everything else is voodoo are what is extreme not the math itself. It is known proven fact that card sequences stay intact after casino shuffles and bad deck compositions (with positive counts) will destroy card counters. Things math sims completely ignore.

I say by understanding, and actively manipulating those things we can improve our results, Yes I could program this knowledge into sim rules, so my "attack" is not on math, it's on those so fixed in their beliefs they are stuck with lame 1-2% edges and huge variance. They just accept the fact that their math tells them to bet into horribly negative ev deck compositions, and then when they lose their money they call it variance. But people who play 1000+ hours a year know there is more going on, that we are finding statistical outliers consistently more often than we should. That voodoo topics like trends, flow, clumping, have some measurable truth to them even though most don't yet understand why.

ASM can easily cheat, move an extra face near each other, move one ace near some small cards, move one ace next to another ace, done and undetectable. Or even create a deck or subset sequence that no matter where you cut, you will lose every hand and this only has to be done some small percentage of the time. Casino also wash their cards in a way to cause this, not all, but some joints know how. I've also personally caught 3 dealers (one I worked with casino showed video proof and he lost his career, the other two are still dealing in Tunica) in the last 4 years. Who knows how many others I did not catch. That is out of a pool of 400 I have played with, I would say up to 1% of dealers out there are dealing seconds, so let's stop telling newbies this does not happen. Anyone stubbornly blindly betting to their math, would lose everything when they eventually run into a game like this, but the community claims it doesn't happen.

Well open minds can know the WHY, because you will come to understand card sequences and shuffling and the effects of aces being near each other within groups of small cards, or faces being grouped. And then you will learn how many spots to play to cause those cards to recombine or separate from each other the next shoe, to actively create more favorable deck sequences. You will stop ignoring 8,9, which are important bust cards, preventing just pushing with the dealer in high counts, and allowing double downs, which is where the far majority of our advantage in high counts comes from, more double the advantage from than blackjacks! But no, the MATH says they are neutral cards LOL!.

You can choose to stop making excuses and actively control these things instead to your advantage. Or, you can choose to stay blind to it, tell yourself, "sorry bad luck, we are playing the long run, bet to the count, trust the math, its normal statistical outcomes, asm cant cheat, dealers don't cheat" always some excuse, stick head in sand, everything else is voodoo. -hypercube21

[Norm]

Things math sims completely ignore.

Correctly run sims do not ignore anything of the sort. And, blackjack math certainly does NOT ignore 8s and 9s.

[conte543]

It's about legal here. You say its not random but doesn't mean it is CHEATING (ie illegal). The manufacturer would always state "we offer the best shuffling method... the shoe is less clumped than manual shuffling therefore our method is better..."
And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.

[BoSox]

It's about legal here. You say its not random but doesn't mean it is CHEATING (ie illegal). The manufacturer would always state "we offer the best shuffling method... the shoe is less clumped than manual shuffling therefore our method is better..."
And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.

What you are stating gives the suggestion of improprieties by setting cards into preset patterns. When something is truly random all kinds of different sequences can and do happen.

[BoSox]

And that's the point of this discussion - cheating or not cheating. it's not about randomness or lack thereof cause there is no legal measure of randomness period.

Now we are on to something. Is it true that

there is no legal measure of randomness in all jurisdictions throughout the country pertaining to the mixing, or shuffling of cards involved in table games? I believe there must be some standards set by gaming laws. If not how could that be possible? Is there grounds for a legal challenge by hundreds of players that deserve consistent standards on procedures throughout the country in all games.