Are CSMs actually rented?

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 07:59 PM

Hi all,

So I was chatting to a pit boss last night and the topic of CSMs came up. I mentioned that I had heard that they were actually rented from Shufflemaster, not bought, and that they cost about $1,800 a month each. He disputed this and said that he had never heard of this and that the venue kept a bunch of them in storage (arson anyone? lol) and that maintenance and repair of them was the responsibility of the particular venuw. Which agreeably doesn't make sense if they are indeed rented/leased.

I'm certain he wasn't lying or trying to throw me. He was genuine. So, is there any actual proof that verifies that CSMs are only rented? I'm starting to believe that it's a bunch of BS to be frank..

Addendum: Also, the infamous Chinese 7 spot 1-120 spreader of yesteryear was back again, much to my frustration. If I see him again I will literally tear him a new one with a lecture on variance/covariance..

**Three** · 09-14-2018, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bushie

I'm certain he wasn't lying or trying to throw me. He was genuine. So, is there any actual proof that verifies that CSMs are only rented?

sometimes people are genuine but they still don't know what they are talking about. When it comes to casino personnel you can substitute most of the time for sometimes.

**stopgambling** · 09-14-2018, 09:17 PM

They got have a few extras lying around in case they break, right?

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Three

sometimes people are genuine but they still don't know what they are talking about. When it comes to casino personnel you can substitute most of the time for sometimes.

Here's the thing though: that isn't proof that they are indeed rented. That's a bit of a logical fallacy right there to be honest. So again, is there actually any proof that CSMs are only rented?

**Three** · 09-14-2018, 09:34 PM

In searching for the answer the first thing i came across was this. A huge verdict against shuffle master's new corporate name for illegal business practices not cheating.

https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-new...inating-market

I am coming up with nothing reliable about whether or not they can be bought. I have been told they are all rented by many casino suits but I don't know if they know what they are talking about.

An AP got his hands on one and the company said they were illegal to own. I am not sure if that means those that buy them can't resell them or that the are never sold. If they are sold they aren't illegal to own. They may be contractually illegal to sell to the public for those that may have bought them. But that doesn't mean it is illegal for a private party to own one.

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by stopgambling

They got have a few extras lying around in case they break, right?

I assume so yes. If they are rented then it makes no sense to have x amount of machines lying around doing nothing costing you x amount per month. It also makes no sense that the repair and maintenance of them is the responsibility of the customer. You would think that would be Shufflemaster's obligation.

**Three** · 09-14-2018, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Bushie

If they are rented then it makes no sense to have x amount of machines lying around doing nothing costing you x amount per month.

They may only have to rent what they have on the casino floor. These machines break down constantly. If the casinos weren't allowed to have some form of backup or ability to repair and/or maintain them in a timely fashion nobody would want them. It doesn't make sense that they would have to rent more machines than they use so that answers your question. They have more machines than they actually use but only have to rent the machines that are in the casino.

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Three

In searching for the answer the first thing i came across was this. A huge verdict against shuffle master's new corporate name for illegal business practices not cheating.

https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-new...inating-market

I am coming up with nothing reliable about whether or not they can be bought. I have been told they are all rented by many casino suits but I don't know if they know what they are talking about.

An AP got his hands on one and the company said they were illegal to own. I am not sure if that means those that buy them can't resell them or that the are never sold. If they are sold they aren't illegal to own. They may be contractually illegal to sell to the public for those that may have bought them. But that doesn't mean it is illegal for a private party to own one.

Hm that article is in relation to ASMs however. It's good to know that ASMs are indeed rented and/or bought though. Plus it's hardly surprising that the company that makes them engages in mob-like tactics. I'd expect no less..

**Three** · 09-14-2018, 09:44 PM

Why would a casino buy a product that is so unreliable that they had to buy many more than they needed at $20K per unit. That should answer your question. If they have a warehouse full of $20K units that they bought but don't use I am sure they would have stopped buying them.

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Three

They may only have to rent what they have on the casino floor. These machines break down constantly. If the casinos weren't allowed to have some form of backup or ability to repair and/or maintain them in a timely fashion nobody would want them. It doesn't make sense that they would have to rent more machines than they use so that answers your question. They have more machines than they actually use but only have to rent the machines that are in the casino.

That makes more sense. It's possible. I'll have to gently broach the subject again and see what they have to say about it.

As an interesting sidenote, their roulette tables only cost $16,000 AUD each. Quite cheap really..

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 10:02 PM

Oh and Freightman, if I see Mr 120 tonight I'm going to follow your advice and bust out on my hands he backbets and be utterly ruthless. That should teach him a lesson..

**Freightman** · 09-14-2018, 10:19 PM

[QUOTE=Bushie;

Addendum: Also, the infamous Chinese 7 spot 1-120 spreader of yesteryear was back again, much to my frustration. If I see him again I will literally tear him a new one with a lecture on variance/covariance..[/QUOTE]

Speaking of dickwads, has the Dipshit been around lately.

**Bushie** · 09-14-2018, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Speaking of dickwads, has the Dipshit been around lately.

I saw him last night. Spreading 1x10 to 7x200 as soon as the TC hit +2 every time. He was probably up about 7-8k at one stage, and then inevitably down about 1-2k by the end of it. No deviations whatsoever either. It shits me not only for the obviously detrimental effect it has on my own game, but it's shit like that that has made this particular venue go from a gold mine to using CSMs, and seemingly a soon to be CSM-only dump.

So instead of barring his play, they tolerate someone using a ludicrous spread and install CSMs instead in a country where traditional AP opportunities are almost entirely dead. They probably haven't barred his play because he has a VIP membership card for fuck sake. Sorry for the rant. I'm just pissed off from this crap and a moderately large loss..