Friend Investing in My Play

[CountinCanadian]

I don't know how to feel about this... It feels like both a great opportunity and a terrible idea at the same time. But I will stress that I in no way advertised/pushed this idea, but rather showed/am showing him reluctance to this.

I wouldn't even consider with anyone else, but this is my best friend, whom I've been very close with since grade 1.

He knows about my card counting, he got me into blackjack in the first place in November, and he is usually the one to take me to the casino when I get out to it. I taught him basic strategy, but don't think he has what it takes to count, as he makes lots of mistakes with basic strategy in live play despite knowing it cold when we're sitting at home.

However, after losing his money fast, he has been sitting at the table while I've quickly doubled or quadrupled by buy-in on several occasions. In fact, I'm yet to have a single session where I haven't cashed out with at least double what I bought in with since I started counting... admittedly I don't play much, just practise/read a lot as I build my bankroll through normal jobs. I only go once every few weeks.

And here's the thing, he's been working a lot, for several years, and has over 15k in savings - much more than I have, and he can afford to risk more. He is now very adamant that he wants to "invest in my play." The deal he said he thinks fair is we would split any profit, but I wouldn't hold any responsibility for paying back losses. Which I think is a very very good deal for me.

This is over the long run, of course. If I make $500 one day and lose $300 another, I won't make $250, I'll make $100.

He seems to want to give me several thousand dollars.

Anyways, I continually stress how risky it is to him and he must accept the very real possibility of losing it all. I'm telling him he probably has a false perception of my profitability based on all my luck thus far. He still seems persistent to do it, and frankly, I'm a little torn. Is this a good chance? Or a bad way to screw up a friendship?

While I'm now very confident in my technical skills, using Wongs Halves with ~80 indexes, I don't think I have the camoflauge skills and nuances that come with experience necessary to bet big all of a sudden. But I suppose a several thousand dollar bankroll would probably still put me within tolerance limits betting kelly... Anyways, advice on the situation is appreciated.

[BlackJackAgain]

I briefly considered having someone invest some time ago, and one interesting point is how the profit/loss is divided between player/s and investors. Not a simple point by any means...

Would be interested to hear about people who've done this and what sort of formulas were used....

[Meistro123]

It's very simple, you form a limited blackjack team. You do a 50/50 split between investors and players. Here, you would be the only player, so you would get 50% of any winnings right away. Then if you invest you get your % of the investor's share as well. So if you each put up 5k then you get 75% of all profit. You will probably want to do between 100 to 200 max bets. It is actually a pretty solid investment if you are honest and can play without many errors.


You might want to make him a junior partner, so you put up 10k he puts up 4k. So that you can get a decent hourly. It is better for you to have a big piece anyway so agency costs aren't an issue. You should draw up a blackjack business plan. How much you are starting with, plans to increase or decrease bets, projected hourly etc.

I say go for it, it should be mutually beneficial. Consider offering to train him and put him on the team as a player if he can pass a skills test. If you are worried about losing his money then simply play with 200+ max bets, very conservative, and have a plan to move down as well (so u start 200 max bets, then if u lose 50 max bets u decrease bet size).



Break the bank if it doubles. Or if you want to be nice when / if it quadruples. Frequent breaks are better for the player.

[ZeeBabar]

Friendships and relationships are lost when friends, siblings, relatives go into business together. I would not recommend it. You have been playing a very short time and have not experienced the downside.

For me, BY and both losses and wins taught me a lot about myself.

The drive back with your buddy not just after your first loss but after your first losing streak will be tough. Just like you have won every session you have played, at some time you will experience losses in a row. Wait till after you see how you and your friend react to returning home after losses, a few of them, before you set up a business relationship.

[Bigdaddy]

Don't do it. Good way to screw up a friendship. You need to tell your friend some basic truths about the game, such as:

You're playing a game with a 1% advantage (Newsflash - not a big advantage). In order to be reasonably assured of coming out on the profit side of things you may have to put in about 75,000 rounds of play or about 700 hours. Based on your schedule of playing "once every few weeks", it could take you over two years to achieve that many rounds.

You're friend's willingness to invest based on observing you play and win a few times is based on uneducated enthusiasm. It's your responsibility to correct that.

But if you do decide to team up, you absolutely need to base your profit/loss sharing arrangement based on longer-term cumulative results, not the results of individual sessions.

[Sharky]

.. we would split any profit...If I make $500 one day and lose $300 another, I won't make $250, I'll make $100....

I understand the numbers are larger, but you must be capable of basic math to count cards...just quit while ahead, IMO...

[Sharky]

Ah, see now he is bankrolling you, which is diff from investing in you....typically, the player is an investor too... perhaps he is in love with you?

[CountinCanadian]

Ah, see now he is bankrolling you, which is diff from investing in you....typically, the player is an investor too... perhaps he is in love with you?

Most people are but yeah my bad. That's what that example would suggest, but tbh we haven't really decided how we would slice it. Investing part, bankrolling, not sure. He'd probably do whatever I tell him but I don't want to give him an unfair deal.

[Meistro123]

I understand the numbers are larger, but you must be capable of basic math to count cards...just quit while ahead, IMO...

Well I never got my grade 12 but correct me if I am wrong here but if OP wins $200 while his friend is bankrolling him, his share would be $100. So perhaps it is you who should quit while you are ahead, po.

[Stealth]

Most comments and suggestions regarding team structure miss many of the issues that arise from unintended consequences.

As an example, just think through the situations that can occur when the team is playing until you double (or whatever) the bank. They can be a self defeating nightmare.

If you have a real interest in this topic, I will be glad to have an offline exchange (PM) or discussion by email or phone contact.

Some thoughts to keep in the forefront:

MEMBERS MUST BE PEOPLE OF INTEGRITY
Recruiting is strategic to the success
Members must be technically competent and proven so for all members to trust
Investment must recieve a risk adjusted rate of return
All team play done within policy level risk of ruin.
Expense policy mandantory and administered by management
Playing policy and protocols must be clear and adhered to.
Players earnings are based on their measurable effort
Good management is a must for an ongoing venture

[RS]

Let’s say you’re down a shit ton, are you going to plan on playing more, knowing that all of the money until the break even point that you win won’t even go to you? I’m not really asking. But think about it.

[DSchles]

No matter what you decide, don't even dream of making any splits on a per-session basis. That is suicidal for the investor. Scenario: You get 50% as the player and he is the lone investor. First day, you win $1,000. $500 to you, $500 to him. Second day, you lose $1,000. He loses the whole amount! Two-day result: team is even, you're up $500, he's down $500. Bottom line: YOU could get rich breaking even!! :-)

Sooooo, no split till you've played a long time. Lest you think this isn't heavy on the math, see BJA3, pp. 298-301.

Don

[muggo11]

I invest in a poker player. I gave her $5k. Whenever she gets above 5K, she sends me half. In the last two years, I have gotten nearly $3K. And her bankroll has never dipped below 2k. I told her I am willing to lose $2500 if/when either of us breaks the deal. So, she is on the hook for $2500 if she ever goes bust
Obviously, she is a skilled, discipline player at both cash games and tourneys. And I sure love getting unexpected infusions of cash every once in a while!
That’s our deal and it is working for us both.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk