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Thread: Tidbits, odds and sods, dispelling the Asian counter myth

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    Tidbits, odds and sods, dispelling the Asian counter myth

    Just completing another out of town trip. My year long burner with no trip losses is at an end. Regardless of this or that, I couldn't overcome the inevitable statistical realities. The saving grace is that my loss was only about half of my average win.

    In any event, this is not really the purpose of the post - the purpose being the unusual anomalies, and the usual, of the last 3 days. Many have commented that they seldom, if ever, have run across counters during their travels. I came across 4, with reference to a fifth, who I have actually met. Further, these 5 counters were not the stereotypical white guy, etc etc, - all having the built in cover of being Asian.

    The first one knew me, spotted me from a poker table, texted me. We got together the following day to catch up. Prior to meeting, I was at a venue, when this nerdy looking kid, sitting next to me, was blasting away. I commented to him that "subtlety was not his forte". We started to chat - he was actually a dealer at another location. Later, while chatting with the first counter, i mentioned this fellow. MH then told me that another counter, who used to reside in a different city, was now a dealer in the city that I was in, and that additional pen was available. This person texted their contact, mentioning the nerdy kid that I came across - the dealer commenting that he actually had trained the nerdy fellow. So, we have 2 Asian counting dealers, working at different venues - yes, i understand there may be collusion, but I didnt ask, nor did I want to know. Another counter, who I identified before playing a hand, and pretty much vice versa, was someone I first met while playing at the Golden Nugget in Vegas. He had recently moved to the west from the other side of the country, and took up residence in a city which I play in. Things got to hot for him, so he moved to the city which I just had flown to. I sat down at a table, where the nerdy fellow works (didn't see him), and was surprised to see the Vegas contact, . Also, his blast away style being handled well by the pit. This was at a $25 table. I saw him later the same day at a $50 table in a different venue, where the nerdy fellows trainer worked. Funny thing, he spread much more aggressively at the $25 table. Small world so far. The last guy, a dickhead, sat down at my table in this low class shit hole, which portrays itself as a diamond class facility. This pretzel, after 3 minutes, started to agonize over every decision, sat out after the count tanked - asshole. I got him back though, commenting that the dickhead was aggravating, and that I was moving on. Forced the petzel to put his min out. Good for him.

    Though my play was tolerated, I had 3 incidents that I thought were interesting. At the $50 min table, (first visit before seeing everybody), I ordered a late breakfast. A security guy was behind me commenting I could have the meal comped if I had a players card. I'm playing $50 min, I said. Do u really think I give a shit about a free breakfast. Nothing more said. The second was where the nerdy kid worked - some guy, previously unknown to me, came up and asked -

    -are you Daniel?, you look exactly like Daniel.
    -Nope
    -What should I call you
    -A real nice guy, anything but not late for dinner
    -Nothing more said.

    3rd place had decent pen. Some idiot had just dropped about 5 k, and I was spreading, but very conservatively. Pen was nice. Went to take a whiz, came back, and pen went to the shitter. On the way out, critter comes up to me to shake my hand, thank me for playing, and asked me my name. I gave him a name, though it wasn't mine. Everybody wants a name.

    Saw 3 goons surround a guy where the dickhead was playing. This petzel wouldn't return a mispay, so they were being nasty and just getting ready to 86 him. Not sure how big it was. Not very friendly.

    Saw what I consider a pretty lousy ruling, so interested in opinions. The lady decides to pass her 15 v 7, next player has Blackjack and is paid.I haven't played yet, lady changers her mind. Critter rules, even though I haven't played yet, that her pass stands, because the fellow was paid his bj. Just another of the several issues surrounding this low class joint. I don't know
    Last edited by Freightman; 06-05-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    ...Saw what I consider a pretty lousy ruling, so interested in opinions. The lady decides to pass her 15 v 7, next player has Blackjack and is paid.I haven't played yet, lady changers her mind. Critter rules, even though I haven't played yet, that her pass stands, because the fellow was paid his bj. Just another of the several issues surrounding this low class joint. I don't know
    I have NEVER seen this ruled ANY other way...you were expecting 'seconds'???.....lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
    I have NEVER seen this ruled ANY other way...you were expecting 'seconds'???.....lol
    In my neck of the woods, there would not be any hesitation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    A security guy was behind me commenting I could have the meal comped if I had a players card. I'm playing $50 min, I said. Do u really think I give a shit about a free breakfast.
    Love your subtlety! :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Saw what I consider a pretty lousy ruling, so interested in opinions. The lady decides to pass her 15 v 7, next player has Blackjack and is paid.I haven't played yet, lady changers her mind. Critter rules, even though I haven't played yet, that her pass stands, because the fellow was paid his bj. Just another of the several issues surrounding this low class joint. I don't know
    I agree with the pit's ruling. Even though paying a BJ didn't change any cards, the payment meant the next player's hand was acted upon, so no backing up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Love your subtlety! :-)


    I agree with the pit's ruling. Even though paying a BJ didn't change any cards, the payment meant the next player's hand was acted upon, so no backing up.
    Far and wide, I'm known for my subtlety. Modesty and humility are attributes in that same General category.

    Regarding the ruling, maybe technically correct. Many of the venues in my overall general locale (NHC), blackjacks are not settled until the hand is over. In the very few (couple) of venues where dealer takes a hole card, critters would have discretionary authority to make the player friendly ruling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Love your subtlety! :-)


    I agree with the pit's ruling. Even though paying a BJ didn't change any cards, the payment meant the next player's hand was acted upon, so no backing up.
    [This is totally contrary to my experience on this subject. The standard procedure in my jurisdiction is if NO further cards were dealt, the player has NOT conceded his position on the hand and retains its initial status.] House policy is generally dictated by whether or not they like you.

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    This can be ruled either way BUT the most common ruling is that the initial play of waving off the dealer stands.

    I have only very rarely seen it go to the player's choice.


    Meanwhile Freightman spoke at some length about Asian Card Counters. As everybody knows, I train quite a lot

    of serious players. The surprise is ... A very high proportion of Card Counters are Asians, and indeed I have been

    training an Asian BJ dealer in Las Vegas. He works a real shit hole casino as a break-in dealer. While Asians represent

    what, 10% off the population in the USA , they represent a rather higher proportion of Casino Patrons. P.S. Stanford Wong

    is John Ferguson. L.O.L.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    This can be ruled either way BUT the most common ruling is that the initial play of waving off the dealer stands.

    I have only very rarely seen it go to the player's choice.


    Meanwhile Freightman spoke at some length about Asian Card Counters. As everybody knows, I train quite a lot

    of serious players. The surprise is ... A very high proportion of Card Counters are Asians, and indeed I have been

    training an Asian BJ dealer in Las Vegas. He works a real shit hole casino as a break-in dealer. While Asians represent

    what, 10% off the population in the USA , they represent a rather higher proportion of Casino Patrons. P.S. Stanford Wong

    is John Ferguson. L.O.L.

    Well, all I can add is Boola boola.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Saw what I consider a pretty lousy ruling, so interested in opinions. The lady decides to pass her 15 v 7, next player has Blackjack and is paid.I haven't played yet, lady changers her mind. Critter rules, even though I haven't played yet, that her pass stands, because the fellow was paid his bj. Just another of the several issues surrounding this low class joint. I don't know
    In my neck of the woods the BJ is paid and the cards go in the discard pile before anyone plays their hand for the situation described. But the situation could be ruled either way. Most dealers wouldn't involve the floor and allow it or ask if anyone with a hand still live objects before allowing it. Most Floormen would allow it but some don't. You don't have to stop at the Floor. I pretty much comes down to whether they like you or not. I guarantee if I wanted a card I would get it. If not I would assume they don't want me there and leave once I had no advantage. You learn the Floormen and know what they are comfortable allowing and what you have to go over their head to get done. In other situations I have had Table Games Managers give me much better options than the Floor ever would. Like in a somewhat similar situation I have had the Table Games Manager say I can't give you the next card but he have everyone including the dealer play their hands and then give me the option of playing my hand however I wanted. Knowing the dealers final outcome makes playing your hand a lot easier.

    When dealing with the Floor it helps to know what the Floor can do before calling the table games manager. I had a situation where the dealer skipped my hit signal on my first hand and gave the next card to my second hand. The second hand was a 16vT which busted but the card would have given my first hand 21. The Floor said he couldn't back up the cards and the situation was being resolved with me busting the first hand and later the second hand against a double exposure dealer 20. I was not happy and said I should have gotten an option on both hands. He was adamant that he couldn't do that the entire time. After the hand was over I called him back as he started to leave and asked if he could call it a dead hand because I would have won my first hand and would have stood on the second and would have had a net push for the round so calling it a dead hand would have the correct overall result occur as if the dealer hadn't made a mistake. He thought about it for a few seconds and said he could call it a dead hand and did so. I pushed like I would have but most Floor would have given me a better option without needing to call it a dead hand. I at least wasn't mad about it as I would have been the way the Floor was resolving the misdeal. Plus, I also knew they still liked me. The point is to understand what the Floor can do and if that isn't good enough decide if you want to involve the Table Games Manager.

    I had another situation that I can't even remember the dealer screw up but the Floor wasn't following the state's regulations for the misdeal. I told him he just can't do what he wants and there are laws about how this must be handled and you are there to insure the casino follows the law and avoids being fined for breaking it. That is your function and your job in this situation. You aren't here to make an arbitrary decision that makes the casino $100. You are here to make sure the casino at least follows the law and doesn't get a minimum fine of $10K or up to a 6 figure fine. I told him I knew the law and I would prefer to resolve this with the casino rather than getting the Casino Commission involved which would cause the casino to be assessed a big fine, and asked for the Table Games Manager when he stubbornly refused to follow the law. He went to get the Table Games Manager but instead came back apologizing to everyone, promised us all match plays equal to our bet (he produced them a few minutes later) and then followed what the law directed. The point is to know what the law is in your jurisdiction. The casinos are usually far more generous than the law requires in dealer error situations but make sure they don't fall short of the law for the jurisdiction you are playing in.

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    Is this essay 101? i would fail miserably . : (

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Just completing another out of town trip. My year long burner with no trip losses is at an end. Regardless of this or that, I couldn't overcome the inevitable statistical realities. The saving grace is that my loss was only about half of my average win.
    Can you explain that in a little more detail as I can't understand a word of it. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by ummagumma View Post
    Can you explain that in a little more detail as I can't understand a word of it. Thanks
    Translation: I plan my trips and my style of play to make being ahead at the end of the trip highly certain. I don't worry about maximizing EV. I worry about maximizing the certainty I will have a winning trip. I do this by limiting volatility but keeping EV relatively high when compared to EV maximizing play, and having a low n0 that I can cycle through a big chunk of if not totally through in a trip. I just want as many quality hours I can get and don't worry about quantity of hours. That allows me to play while being sharp the entire time. Inevitably I will have some losing trips but what I do makes them few and far between so to speak and tends to keep the losses low compared to the wins. As I have worked hard to make likely, I have had a good run this year and managed to win every trip until this one, where I had a modest loss.

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    Question about the mispay.. say you're overpayed like $500, and at a casino far away so it doesn't really matter if you're 86'd, if you refuse to give back the overpay, they still have to let you cash it out right?

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