Do casinos really make mistakes by barring marginal counters?

[Freightman]

One more thing: You (and Freightman) have never addressed my central point...that backing off a marginal counter makes him more profitable for the casinos in the long run, since now this person believes he has a winning game. Backing off someone doesn’t make them quit playing...it makes them want to play more. Therefore, generating more revenue for the casinos. I haven’t seen anybody rebuttal this. I think it’s a good point I haven't seen anybody make before.

Btw, I respect that we can have an honest disagreement and not call each other names. When someone disagrees with Freightman, he goes right to name calling...bringing back old time memories from my junior high days.

Mr. Contrary
There's no point in having a debate with you. The discussion parameters always change to suit up your version of the then current discussion.

Does your employer manage table populations. In other words, do you stack the players like sardines, or do you give the players elbow room?

[Three]

.that backing off a marginal counter makes him more profitable for the casinos in the long run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEKxP8DqEt4

[Dbs6582]

Mr. Contrary
There's no point in having a debate with you. The discussion parameters always change to suit up your version of the then current discussion.

Just like I thought, neither you or Theee have a rebuttal. Must mean the casinos are doing things right. I have stayed consistent with my main point, and no one has augured against it. I expect no one has even thought about it in this way before.

[ZeeBabar]

DB6582, just a few questions. A Jewellry store has all its real jewellery under counters, why? Why does Wal-Mart not have more of its stuff under lock and key? I have been to Wal-Mart about 20÷ times a year since they first opened and have only seen them catch a shoplifters maybe once.I

I think they are all decisions made carefully. To assume the corporate run casinos (with their MBA's and highly paid analysts) don't know what they are doing is plain arrogant.

I have heard people claim that BJ is about to die when casinos started offering multimedia games, using ASM's, using CSM's, offering 8 decks, 6/5 etc. I have heard casinos will be lost without BJ tables and they have been turning more and more of them into videogames and BY variants.

Despite all that, each year you have more casinos than the last. My point, they know what they are doing for the most part. Moreover, BJ is not the reason they exist.

What individual counters take from casinos is the equivalent of a large grocery store having a customer popping a grape or a piece of candy as they walk through the aisle.

[Three]

I have stayed consistent with my main point, and no one has augured against it.

I hope your main point wasn't the thing you said that was so insane nobody thought you were serious about it. To a counter being backed off is both a fact of life and a badge of shame. It is not something to be proud of or something that indicates you are doing things right. To a low level counter a BO says I was too stupid and bad at what I am doing to get my little bets and spread to fly in front of these idiots.

[Freightman]

Just like I thought, neither you or Theee have a rebuttal. Must mean the casinos are doing things right. I have stayed consistent with my main point, and no one has augured against it. I expect no one has even thought about it in this way before.

Two points
First, it is you with the obsession, mentioning me in post after post. Second, dealing with you is a pointless excercise - an endless circular reference of never ending iterations.

[Dbs6582]

DB6582, just a few questions. A Jewellry store has all its real jewellery under counters, why? Why does Wal-Mart not have more of its stuff under lock and key? I have been to Wal-Mart about 20÷ times a year since they first opened and have only seen them catch a shoplifters maybe once.I

I think they are all decisions made carefully. To assume the corporate run casinos (with their MBA's and highly paid analysts) don't know what they are doing is plain arrogant.

I have heard people claim that BJ is about to die when casinos started offering multimedia games, using ASM's, using CSM's, offering 8 decks, 6/5 etc. I have heard casinos will be lost without BJ tables and they have been turning more and more of them into videogames and BY variants.

Despite all that, each year you have more casinos than the last. My point, they know what they are doing for the most part. Moreover, BJ is not the reason they exist.

What individual counters take from casinos is the equivalent of a large grocery store having a customer popping a grape or a piece of candy as they walk through the aisle.

Zee, I think you’re missing my point. I’ve said all along this is NOT a big issue with casinos. I think we’re on the same page here. The casinos I play at are not spending “gobs” of money on this, they are not trying to catch counters, they are not backing off counters, etc. I’ve played bj for 20 years and I have never seen a person backed off.

I’ve made this point before. Casinos are spending the majority of their time and money trying to compete against the new casinos opening up down the block or over in Asia or somewhere else. They aren’t worried about some of the trivial stuff we discuss on this forum. They aren’t spending hours reading these forums trying to learn the latest AP skill.

This debate is on an isolated point about the value in backing off a marginal counter. I don’t think it matters much either way since blackjack isn’t a major source of their revenue. But if it did, you could make an argument that backing off marginal counters increases, rather than decreases, revenue. It’s a small rather meaningless point. The only reason I’m even spending time on this is because I’m bored at work sitting in meetings in the back of the room.

[RS]

Why do you think casinos care so much about team play and react so much more harshly when it is discovered? Because they know there is a huge difference between 100 counters each playing with a $1K BR and 100 counters playing as a team with a $100K BR. Each individual counter will have to play a long time to cycle through their n0 a few times and get closer to long run results. A team has to play 1/100th of the time to do so. By the time you have cycled through your n0 once, the team has cycled through that n0 100 times. For counters to not understand the difference and see why the casino would fear a team of counters playing with the same BR as the cumulative BR as the same number of individual counters, while not fearing the cumulative of individual counters, shows they really don't understand what they are doing at all.

The casinos understand this all too well. You ever been playing with a friendly dealer trying to find good pen after seeing poor cuts everywhere. The dealer says, sorry that's the best I can do today. A team is in town and every casino is directing their dealer to cut 2+ decks off. The casino is not thinking 6 individual counters are in town lets cut our pen and give up a boatload of money in lost rounds. The casino is thinking we have a team that is going to quickly cycle through its n0 and almost certainly cost us money and possibly a lot of money. Lets give some profits up to make it harder for them to get less money. Then when we are dealing with the rare solo counter we can cut deep again.

The point is, even though the casinos are stupid, they still understand the big difference in threat level from some individual players and a team of players. The question is if the dumb shit casino employees get it, why don't some APs understand it?

Oh yeah, this makes a whole lotta sense. It's not like a team will be max betting 2x$500+ whereas a solo player may be max betting 1x$50. The EV is totally the same. It's the bankroll that makes the casinos quake in their boots! Same reason why they back off green chippers who spread $25 to $250 and not red chippers going from $5 to $50, it's the size of the player's bankroll, not the difference in EV. <eyeroll>

Casinos are pretty smart, though. That is true. Instead of putting out a BOLO on the team (that means Be On Look Out), they'll just change up their procedure. It'd be horridly inefficient to just get rid of the APs, it makes far more sense to tell the bosses, floor, and dealers that a team is in town and they need to cut off 2+ decks....but once that team is gone, let them know to go back to cutting off 1 or fewer decks for the lone wolf APs out there.

It has been demonstrated through math and practice that value is advantage times wager and the size of a bankroll doesn't change the value generated. Flip a coin to a thousand different people or to one person a thousand times, it's the same thing. It's hilarious to think there are APs out there who don't understand that if a group of players each are playing to a 95% ROR, that 95 of them should bust out yet 5 of them should make some serious money (relative to their BR), and on average they'd be profitable, even though most would go broke.

Remember, only use math if it helps you in a discussion....if the math goes against your point, well, you're obviously not going to want to use math.

[21forme]

Post after fucking post, regardless of the addressee, your commentary includes
"I think you've missed my point" and "I've made this post before".

Suggestion - put him on your ignore list. He never comes up for air. Just posts and posts. 15 pages of this nonsense! Reminds me of a former member who had something to do picking up something on Mt Sinai.

[Three]

But if it did, you could make an argument that backing off marginal counters increases, rather than decreases, revenue.

You could make the point talking off the top of your head, but you would be wrong. People who make a living off advising casino's how to maximize profits have proven that you are wrong. If I want advice about stocks, I don't listen to anyone that owns a share of stock no matter how lips he is. I listen to people that make a living advising investors.

[Freightman]

If I want advice about stocks, I don't listen to anyone that owns a share of stock no matter how lips he is. I listen to people that make a living advising investors.

They're those who do admirable jobs managing their win portfolios. I'm not one of those. I pay pros to do that for me, and I have no reason to complain.

Caveat for all. Shop around, find someone who is knowledgable, on the same wavelength as you, and, after fees, earns you consistent returns.

[BoSox]

Oh yeah, this makes a whole lotta sense. It's not like a team will be max betting 2x$500+ whereas a solo player may be max betting 1x$50. The EV is totally the same. It's the bankroll that makes the casinos quake in their boots! Same reason why they back off green chippers who spread $25 to $250 and not red chippers going from $5 to $50, it's the size of the player's bankroll, not the difference in EV. <eyeroll>

Casinos are pretty smart, though. That is true. Instead of putting out a BOLO on the team (that means Be On Look Out), they'll just change up their procedure. It'd be horridly inefficient to just get rid of the APs, it makes far more sense to tell the bosses, floor, and dealers that a team is in town and they need to cut off 2+ decks....but once that team is gone, let them know to go back to cutting off 1 or fewer decks for the lone wolf APs out there.

It has been demonstrated through math and practice that value is advantage times wager and the size of a bankroll doesn't change the value generated. Flip a coin to a thousand different people or to one person a thousand times, it's the same thing. It's hilarious to think there are APs out there who don't understand that if a group of players each are playing to a 95% ROR, that 95 of them should bust out yet 5 of them should make some serious money (relative to their BR), and on average they'd be profitable, even though most would go broke.

Remember, only use math if it helps you in a discussion....if the math goes against your point, well, you're obviously not going to want to use math.

Wink, Wink.

[ShipTheCookies]

If most of you actually entered casinos as much as you all TALK about it, you might have a flipping clue. Casino management doesn't want ANY POTENTIAL advantage player in their establishments. End of discussion!