Problem in counting 2 and 7

**cc12b** · 05-06-2018, 12:30 PM

Hi

Most level 2 count strategies give 2 and 7 same tag value as 1. Well, it may be suitable for B.C but there is problem in P.E. Let say you have 15 vs 7 or 8 or 9 up card and the BS and indices calls for hit. We can see the different of outcome if you get 2 or 7. Any solution?

**Three** · 05-06-2018, 02:33 PM

It is not anything to worry about. But if you must worry you can side count key ranks to fix specific issues for certain matchups.

**lij45o6** · 05-06-2018, 07:49 PM

If I recall correctly, Peter Griffin pointed out that SC'ing 7's helps improve the PE of a system. In fact, much like dalmatian stated, the 7 is the most valued rank to side count! Think about the hand match-up 14 vs T. (You can see this in ToBJ by Griffin, 6th edition. Ch 5 should be on multi-parametric analysis for any system.)

**cc12b** · 05-07-2018, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by dalmatian

7 seems to be the most valuable rank to side count for PE improvements. 2 not even close. If you must side count, side count the 7.

Thanks all reply. The Zen, I'm using, already counts 7 now side count it then how I you calculate it in playing? with Zen if you only able to do 1 side count you should sc 7 or A? I talk about 2 decks.

**Three** · 05-07-2018, 09:14 AM

In general the improvement in BC for side counting aces when using an ace compromise count would be small, but in certain situations it would be quite significant for that situation. It has its uses for some important playing decisions as well. The net result from doing these things will be being able to bet more with the same ROR or simply having a lower RoR. This is because variance will be less when betting and playing more accurately to actual advantage and optimal playing decisions. Variance drives everything stat in the game worth maximizing. If you can reduce variance without much trouble it is always worth it in my opinion, no matter how little the difference in EV.

**Three** · 05-07-2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by dalmatian

It doesn't matter that you are already side counting the 7.

I don't think this is what you are trying to say. Take out the word side and it says what you were trying to say.

Originally Posted by dalmatian

But to side count the seven you will need to memorize all the adjustment's to RC that each excess/deficit 7 triggers for EVERY play. This takes a lot of memorization and practice so it is up to you.

Well you will pick a family of plays that are more affected by the 7 and memorize those playing adjustments for those hands.

Also you may have playing departures that are easily reached (low m-value but EoR's of tagged cards have little or no correlation to the playing EoRs) but the correlation is so bad there is no index. The adjustment may be ridiculous and a really high magnitude index you would never reach may be generated when you generate an index where one didn't exist before.

Originally Posted by dalmatian

I agree! But the dilemma was if he must choose one or the other, which is more beneficial for Zen: side count of aces or 7s?

To me it wouldn't be an either/or decision. It would be a which one to learn first decision. In DD there are only 8 cards to count in either rank.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 05-07-2018, 11:58 AM

Aces must be side-counted for any Count.
Sevens are useful for DD games ~ P.E. only.

**Dbs6582** · 05-07-2018, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Aces must be side-counted for any Count.
Sevens are useful for DD games ~ P.E. only.

Flash, why do you say aces must be side-counted for any count? Is it mostly to help with insurance desicions? How much does it help with betting and PE? Which is more important when side counting aces? And what are the main plays that help with PE? I except it's doubling 9s and 10s, and possible when not to double 11s (even when the count calls for it).

I side count aces in DD, along with using a simple counting system (hi lo). I mostly use it for insurance desicions, but have looked for ways to use it to help with PE too. I've also wondered if I should use it for betting desicions, betting more than the count calls for when I know there are an excess of aces left.

I also sometimes side count 7s. I use it for insurance desicions, but have started trying to use it for PE too. Thanks!

**Freightman** · 05-07-2018, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Aces must be side-counted for any Count.
Sevens are useful for DD games ~ P.E. only.

Aces need not be side counted to beat most games. Side counting aces will enhance average winnings, but is not required to win, long term.

**DSchles** · 05-07-2018, 07:30 PM

"I've also wondered if I should use it for betting decisions, betting more than the count calls for when I know there are an excess of aces left."

You've already counted the aces for betting in Hi-Lo once. How many times do you want to count them for the same purpose? The EOR of an ace is virtually the same as that of a ten. The answer to your question is no, you shouldn't bet more.

Don

**Dbs6582** · 05-07-2018, 08:04 PM

Thanks Don. I read somewhere, probably on another forum, where the ace is worth more than a 10 for betting purposes. I've always kept my betting ramp closely tied to the count but sometimes I think I should get a little more aggressive if I know the count is positive and it's mostly due to an excess in aces. I'll just keep my ace side count for better insurance desicions and for the rare occasion when the count isn't quite at the strick point for some doubles.