Barkley and your rich friends aren't exactly great examples of the typical people casinos prey on.
Casinos would happily take your last dollar, your food money, your medicine money etc. They'll throw you out if they think you have a brain. Take every nickel you can from them.
Freightman, in regards to APs you've made the same points I've tried to make. Are you a Spin Doctor too?Originally Posted by Freightman
Here's your direct quote: "The actual fact is that we contribute nothing to the well being of society." You then went onto say "we plunder" Your words, not mine.
I thought this was a valid point. My counter to you is casino are different than an AP because casinos provide entertainment for the general public. This is not being a spin doctor. This is the business casinos are in....selling negative EV games for the purpose of entertainment. And most people understand this. Like everything else in society some people don't know how to do things in moderation and thus gambling can ruin their lives.
Okay, I'll go to the other side of the spectrum. My former secretary who didn't make much money lived alone since her husband died. She enjoyed going casinos on weekends with her friends and playing slots. She played in moderation and enjoyed it. Once she won two jackpots for $12,000 and spent the next year telling me about it, telling me her strategy and how she knew which slots were "hot". It made her year, she's probably still telling this story to anybody that will listen. Did I pop her bubble and tell her Santa Claus doesn't exist and she just got lucky. Of course not. How much do I think she spent over the years winning this jackpot? Probably a lot more than she won. But for her, this was a highlight of her life.
I sometimes play with retired snowbirds in Biloxi in the winter months. Most are from Michigan. They own condos in Biloxi and enjoy playing bj and slots. None play at an advantage but they enjoy it. They play on a monthly budget. When they lose that money, they wait till the next month to play. How do I know? That's what one told me. For them the casino experience adds value to their lives. Yes, they could be living in a retirement center in Arizona playing shuffle board but they have chosen to spend their twilight years in Biloxi playing a negative EV game in a casino. For these people the casinos add value. They are not problem gamblers. Yes, they probably won't leave their kids with as much money as if they didn't go to a casino but it's their money, they earned it, so they should be able to spend it as they want.
The other month before I was getting ready to drive home from Biloxi, I played with a middle age women who was bald and had a bandana over her head. It was Sunday morning and it was just her and me at the table. She told me about how she had cancer through out her body and had gone through serval chemo treatments. She also told me that she didn't have much family. It was a sad story. She didn't have long to live. Should she have been somewhere else in her last days? Maybe. But for her the casino was adding value...it was helping her get through this time in her life.
I have freinds who have decent jobs, making between $100,000 and $200,000/yr. They enjoy going to Vegas once a year for gambling and the shows. They are not APs. They set a certain amount aside to lose. For them the casinos are adding value.
Can a casino destroy a person's life? Absolutely. So can alcohol. Do you think alcohol should be banned? If APs really think casinos are this evil entity why don't they try to pass legislation to outlaw casinos. Being an AP does not help the people the APs believe the casinos are harming.
I stand by my orginal statement, a casino adds value to society if you define value as entertainment. One last comment. Try to get to know some of the ploppies at the casinos you frequent often. You might be surprised. You'll meet a lot of interesting people. I've got to get to know people from all different walks of life playing at casinos. . Life is about more than trying to extract as much money as possible from a casino.
For most people, being a ploppy is indeed "entertainment."
Their play has UTILITY. They are only playing to win in an
abstract sense. The best example of this dynamic is seen when
a poor person ['economically disadvantaged' for the politically
correct crowd] purchases a lottery ticket for $5 at a convenience store. In most cases, s/he will have purchased
"a dream" and will cherish that ticket and get a little adrenaline tingle when the winning numbers are announced. S/he has waited for a day or a week or a day, and all of that time s/he views him/herself as potentially wealthy with no view as to the
cost of the ticket(s). A person who is happy with their lives has little motivation for gambling. When I visit my local supermarket, I often see people buying and cashing their lottery tickets; but not a single ticket. I watch. I am disturbed by the fact that a lottery is a form of regressive taxation, that increases poverty. I am watching people with Food Stamps purchase not one, but many tickets. They imagine that by buying a fistful of "Scratch Off" tickets they will increase the odds of winning. Watch them scratch their tickets~as many of these impoverished people cannot wait until they get home
to do so. Pathological gambling has different effects on people when their socio-economic status is considered. The poor are least able to throw their money away, but they have less to lose. If a poor person throws away $20 a week because they cannot find more than that, that limits the damage. Middle Class degenerates find that their escapades as ploppies can lead to loss of employment, bankruptcy, criminal activities, and divorce, etc. The wealthy are rarely pathological gamblers. When they overdo it, they find $100,000 to pay off their casino markers, etc. and discuss it with their therapists. IF you have any interest in "pathological gambling" I suggest that you read a brilliantly written book "Addiction by Design" and for those
interested in discussing this book which brings forth all of the psychological factors that explains how those "addicted" to Slot Machines have a particular psychological profile, CONTACT ME. This is beautifully written and without any "psychobabble."
Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 04-12-2018 at 07:33 AM.
I don't know where to start...
You say casinos add value, but wouldn't want them in your town, and compare them to big tobacco.
You say people know they're playing negative EV games, but like it for the entertainment.
Well, much like big tobacco, casinos are designed to make players addicted. It isn't an accident.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...it-all/505814/
https://books.google.com/books/about...ngEACAAJ&hl=en
People don't go to a casino to lose, they go there to win. And casinos prey on those who NEED the win. And sadly, most don't think it's a negative EV game. They think they are going to get lucky, or not.
Casinos aren't fair. Why do they bar APs? They cater to the losers. Even if you're not an AP, you can get barred due to lifetime wins.
You can spin a touching story about your clerk, or say Barkley likes losing money there, but the bottom like is you can't refute the facts. Because of this, I have no issue taking their money. I never feel bad after a big win. I admit, I occasionally feel bad wonging out or in on Grandma with her oxygen tank, who's just there for her weekly "entertainment". But pity for the casino? Nope.
Flash, I get it, trusting me. I agree with your post. I also don't agree with the state run lotteries or lottery tickets. They are a regressive tax on the poor. This is a reflection on us since we've elected the government officials that have implemented these lotteries to raise public money. Why don't government officials just increase taxes to raise revenue? Because if they did they would be voted out of office. So what do they do? They impose a tax (lotteries) on the poor.
If all APs think casinos are this evil entiprise, why don't they ban together and try to pass legislation to outlaw them? Being an AP does nothing to help the people APs believe the casinos are harming. I don't agree with the prohibitionist methods but at least they are consistent. They think alcohol is a destructive force in society so they try to get it outlawed. They don't try to legally extract money from companies that sell alcohol. And yes, this is a good analogy.
I think America was better when casinos were confined to one or two states and we didn't have state run lotteries. But we aren't going back to those days.
My main point is casinos are in the entertainment space. There are a lot of people that say casinos add value to their lives. I know someone who met his wife at the blackjack table. She's a knockout; he's not. He definitely out kicked his coverage on that one. This guy would say the casino added a huge value to his life.
I get it that slots are addictive and casinos try to get more people to buy their products, which is playing at their negative EV games. But isn't this what all for profit companies do? They try to get the public to spend more money buying their product. How are other company different than casinos? The differences is what casinos are selling and what other companies are selling g. But they are all trying to increase their margins and revenue. This is what is done in a free market.
I do believe the more upstanding casinos want people to gamble responsible. They do not want to separate every human being from every last cent and leave them homeless, which is what many (not all) APs believe.
Btw, I have really enjoyed and respected your posts. I also like the way you never attack the individual...you just take issue with their ideas. You disagree with a person while being civil. More people - including me - could learn from you on how to interact with people on forums.
I think we are more on same page with regard to casinos and gambling than you think. I was just trying to make a point about casinos that I think some APs don't think about.
As far as me feeling guilty about talking too much money from a casino that is true. I have one casino I've played at off and on for 20 years. They generously comp me almost anytime my room and all meals on weekends. If they are filled, I see a host and they usually find me a room. I get along with all the pit bosses, dealers and waitresses. I've even dated some of the girls there in the past. I will never take more than $2,000 from them in a weekend. When I get close to that amount, I stop and go to another casino or quite playing for the weekend.
They treat their customers well and I feel a little guilty taking money from them since I know they are a for profit business. I'd hate to be responsible for shutting them down. I know I'm not close to doing that, but just saying.
Very nice post 31 by Flash, worthy of additional discussion.
What I know for sure, is that the competent AP Blackjack community, within a casino setting, is very very small. What I don't have a firm handle on, is the proportions of fun living ploppies to gambling problem players. I'm going to say, for arguments sake, that the proportion is 70-30, 30% being the problem gambler.
Factoid
Freightman has never used a credit card, or used a debit card within a casino. We've all walked past the ATM a thousand times while some poor schmuck sees printed across the screen - insufficient funds.
The message mentioned above, hits all economic stratas. No one is immune. Someone posted some ridiculous commentary about value added services if a casino. Make no mistake - Regardless if any marketing or any make nice scenarios, casinos goal is to empty your wallet, regardless of any effect on a "clients" ability to pay rent, make the mortgage, put food on the table, keep the utilities on. They simple don't give a shit, I've seen far to many instances. I've also heard far to many self serving justifications from senior critters, with absolutely no sympathy saying "how are we supposed to know where he/she is getting the money. And in it goes.
Yet, the reality is that AP's need both the ploppy and the problem gambler to deposit funds, so that we may withdraw, so to speak.
Other opinions of thoughts?
For the ploppy who is there for entertainment, willing to lose a few hundred dollars and who is in tune with their financial circumstance - no issues. For most others, beware.
You're missing my point. I can understand the value something (product or activity) is bringing to someone while not wanting it in my town or community. Drag racing adds value to people that like drag racing. That doesn't mean I want a drag racing track in my town. I could give you many other examples of something that adds value to a certain group of people that I think should be legal that I wouldn't want in my town. Why is that concept so hard for you to understand?
As far as all the articles you posted about the devastation casinos can bring to people and community, I agree. Did you read any of my posts? I've said all along a casino can destroy a person's life. Alcohol can do the same thing. That's why AA chapters are in almost every city in America. I know people who's lives who have been ruined by alcohol. Yes, gambling and alcohol can ruin someone's life if they don't do it responsibly. I think everybody would agree with that. Does this mean these things should be outlawed? If they are legal, then shouldn't a company be able to sell as much of these products as the public wants?
As as far as people not knowing casinos have a house edge on all their games, it's not true. I'm talking the vast majority - there is always an outlier. This came up in a GWAE podcast. Richard Muchkin was interviewing a person (forget who he was) who is an AP Blackjack player and also designs slots for casinos. He said in his test focus groups everybody told him they knew they were playing a negative EV game. He said he doesn't know of any slot player who thinks it's a positive EV game. Why do they play? For the entertainment value. Of course they want to win, but they also enjoy playing.
It was good to hear you feel a little guilty wonging out of negative shoes with the lil old lady who doesn't know what's going on. I do too.
I'm quite humored by an experience I had in the fairly recent past. I apologized to a games manager after ripping them a new backside. I offered to play longer, so that they would have an opportunity to get it back. Actually, I've done that more than once (different stores, different games managers).
We play the game till we can play no more. The joust, until tap day, can be quite fun.
Freightman, I hesitated to respond to your post but couldn't control myself. Flash's post made sense...your post made little sense.
Are you saying a casino should be responsible for knowing the person's financial situation? Are you saying the casino should know who is able to pay their rent and mortgage and who is not? I don't know where to start with this.
Your beliefs go against what most APs believe. As a refresher, most APs believe a person should not have to show ID to be able to play in a casino. To do what you think a casino should do, a person would not only have to show the casino their ID, but they would also have to give the casino all their financial information. This information would then be used to determine if a person would be allowed to play. Are you serious? I'm pretty sure what you have suggested would violate a lot of laws in our country, the least of which would be discrimination against poor people.
The one comment you made that made sense is that both the casino and AP need the ploppy. Without the ploppy, neither the casino or AP exists. As far as the problem gambler, I don't believe the majority of casinos or APs want this. The problem is it comes with the territory. It's the same situation with companies that sell alcohol. They don't want it to destroy lives, but the reality is it will. While most people will drink responsibly, some will not.
As far as the casino's goals, it's the same as with most companies. It's primary goal is to make money for its shareholders.
We are a nation of laws. If the casino is breaking these laws, then our government should shut them down. Or they should be sued out of existence. If they are abiding by our laws, then they should be allowed to operate. It is not a casino or any other businesse's responsibility to check up on the financial situation of a person, unless they are taking out a loan (of course).
I guess I don't see casinos as the Evil Empire. Just because we're trying to beat them doesn't mean we can't respect them. I see it kind a like sports. I always respected my opponent even though I also wanted to beat them.
Ustonzen, oops, I meant Dbs6582
As usual, you purposely interpet out of context. In addition to the standard disclaimers pertaining to most your opinions, I refer vehemently to paragraph 2.
I can cite numerous examples, but, I'll restrain myself and suggest only 3, involving 3 seperate stores.
General Manager Dirty Dingus Magee, when informed that patron x, a warehouse worker, was blowing several hundreds of dollars a day over an e tended 3 weeks, which he already knew, declined to inform his patron if using game sense to control his losses. He exclaimed - how am I to know where he gets his money from - which means, I really don't give a shit if we break him or not.
A bookkeeper, patron b, lost about 200k over a 2-3 month period. I guarantee the money didn't come from her savings account. Casino has seen this scenario multiple times.
Patron C, previously under self exclusion, a situation known by the casino blew 250k over 1 week. When the carnage was over, patron c started crying, exclaims no that he had lost everything. Casino didn't give a shit.
I'm aware if a much larger situation of known criminal activity supporting a huge gambling addiction. I'm reluctant to post details, as that could could point a finger in my direction.
I am humored how casino morals and ethics with regards to behaviour, declines in proportion to the marks pocket book.
Your overall defence of casino morals and ethics makes me want to puke.
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