noobie, need some guidance!

**gengagod** · 05-02-2018, 09:43 AM

Hello there fellow counters.
First of all I have been following this forum for quite a while but just made an account. I am a gambler, I have gambled since the legal age and I have lost quite a large amount of money. However I since a year or so I have mastered basic strategy and understand the maths behind it. (I am currently reading mathematics). I have noticed my losses have been much lower than before. I am now prepared to learn how to count, I didnt trust the process at first but after lurking around this forum for quite some time, I have decided to give it a try.

I have decided to first of all practice the Hi-Lo counting system. After I master the counting system I am planning to wong in (or out?) of shoes with bets (around 100$) but some things I dont understand is how many hands do I play for optimal results (75% at 2 hands and 60% at 3 hands). I doubt my wonging will bring alot of heat as I am quite a big player for the casino.

Does wonging increase my EV/hour and reduce my RoR? And by a big margin?
Is there any books or other system I should know that could potentially increase my ev / knowledge.

Many thanks.

Ps: I am >25 and from UK

**CountinCanadian** · 05-02-2018, 11:01 AM

Okay there's a lot of things that need addressing here but to your question about how many hands to play:

When you're playing heads up (just you alone at the table) always play just one hand. When there are other people at the table, play two hands rather than one at a True Count of +2 or higher (when you have the edge over the house).

Secondly, playing with an edge by wonging heavily and just flat betting is definitely possible, but I'd recommend using a combination of wonging and still applying some sort of betting ramp. What if you Wong in at a TC of +2, but then the count rises to +6? You're not going to want to be betting the same amount in these two situations.

Wonging will increase your EV by eliminating the negative expectation bets you are making in negative or neutral counts, which are normally offset by bigger bets in positive expectation counts. Be careful by thinking it will reduce your ROR by a big margin though. This isn't really true, as when you Wong out, you're eliminating the bets you'd be making in poor counts, which are small bets anyways. The big bets you're making in positive counts play a much bigger role in ROR, and you'll still be making these. Even though you have a slight edge, it's still really easy to bottom out on an unlucky streak if you're overbetting.

For a book, I'd recommend professional blackjack by Stanford Wong.

**CountinCanadian** · 05-02-2018, 11:37 AM

Also be aware that having lost "quite a large amount of money gambling," depending on what you mean by this it will likely take a very long time just to get back even.

**gengagod** · 05-02-2018, 02:06 PM

Thank You CC
Today was my first experiance walking into a casino and not gambling, I brought in for £200 and lost it. I didnt manage to keep up with the count but I saw atleast 20 low cards consecutively and the shoe was nearly done, so I placed 2 hands of 50(won one lost one). Neithertheless I noticed a counter, he asked me to place my bet behind him! ( and ofc we won that hand). He was betting 125 and had atleast 3K infront of him (10 table). Next shoe started and he sat out the whole shoe because ‘didnt feel good’. (I played with table minimum and watched my $$ fly away).

Anyways walking into a casino with a different mindset and you start to realise alot of things. Other plops playing side bets literally slow down the game by a good margin, which means your good count could take long to come! And ofc spotting counters! I also notice max bet of 100 could swing really bad, Ill probably play £5-£50 max bet for a bank roll of 10K. Anyhow is there a strategy on how many bet size on each count?

many thanks

**CountinCanadian** · 05-02-2018, 04:01 PM

Before anything else, you REALLY should learn how to actually keep a running count, and convert it to a true count, and get fairly comfortable with doing this while playing perfect basic strategy. Trust me, doing this is worth it and I honestly would not play without this ability. Once you can do this, here is a betting ramp you can follow, meaning how much you should bet at various counts. This is my suggestion based on the info you have given me. However, practise at lower values, even spreading from like £5 to £20 until you get confident with it.

True Count of 0 or less: Either bet the table minimum or Wong out.

TC of +1: £20

TC +2: £40

TC +3: £80

TC +4: £120

TC +5: £150

TC +6: £180

This will give you a healthy balance between maximizing profit and minimizing ROR.

And then once you're confident doing all this, start to learn index plays, or index deviations. That probably won't be for a little while though, they aren't nearly as important as any of this. But when that time does come, we're here to help.

And for a simple and easy way to practice keeping count and converting it to true count, there's a mobile app I like called Blackjack All-In-One Trainer. Pay for the card counting section, it's only like 4 or 5 bucks and has drills and gameplay and will warn you when you make a mistake.

**gengagod** · 05-02-2018, 05:07 PM

Again! This community has great members to help noobies like me! May you give me the RoR and EV per hour for the betting ramp you suggested?
I am a fast learner, how long do you think before I can keep the count? Thanks CC once again!

**ZeeBabar** · 05-02-2018, 06:33 PM

My advice ( I dont think you CAN follow it) is to take a month off. completely. Stay out of any casino.

1. If you can stay out of a casino for a month, you are NOT a gambling addict. It is important to know where you stand.
2. During the month off, learn and practice the HiLO count, true count conversion, deck estimation, optimal betting and money management (Risk of ruin, BR requirements and more)

**Stealth** · 05-02-2018, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by CountinCanadian

Before anything else, you REALLY should learn how to actually keep a running count, and convert it to a true count, and get fairly comfortable with doing this while playing perfect basic strategy. Trust me, doing this is worth it and I honestly would not play without this ability. Once you can do this, here is a betting ramp you can follow, meaning how much you should bet at various counts. This is my suggestion based on the info you have given me. However, practise at lower values, even spreading from like £5 to £20 until you get confident with it.

True Count of 0 or less: Either bet the table minimum or Wong out.

TC of +1: £20

TC +2: £40

TC +3: £80

TC +4: £120

TC +5: £150

TC +6: £180

This will give you a healthy balance between maximizing profit and minimizing ROR.

And then once you're confident doing all this, start to learn index plays, or index deviations. That probably won't be for a little while though, they aren't nearly as important as any of this. But when that time does come, we're here to help.

And for a simple and easy way to practice keeping count and converting it to true count, there's a mobile app I like called Blackjack All-In-One Trainer. Pay for the card counting section, it's only like 4 or 5 bucks and has drills and gameplay and will warn you when you make a mistake.

While the intentions of this response are good, this ramp and some of this advice is a recipe for disaster.

First, you do not start playing with your money until you have, at minimum, perfect basic strategy, ability to maintain a running count flawlessly and to convert to a true count and oyu know at least the Illustrious 18/Fab 4 indexes. At that point you are ready to begin to design a bet system that fits your tolerance for risk (bankroll) and provides a modicum of cover to prevent the flame out that will occur very quickly when the OP implements that suggested ramp. It would take me one shoe on his table to confirm he is a counter.

Then make sure you are familiar with how to identify "playable" games. Many times the best AP play is to avoid the game. Rules and penetration are important.

Wish you well, but do your homework before putting your money at risk......or you are just gambling.

**gengagod** · 05-03-2018, 03:22 AM

Thank You fellow APers.
I will learn Hi-Lo count and the indexes.
I have basic strategy down naturally already.
I will keep my progress updated for anyone that is interested!
many thanks again

**hitthat16** · 05-03-2018, 09:46 AM

My advice is to start slow and practice a lot. Memorize the basic strategy for your rule set cold. If I wake you up at night holding a knife to your throat and say “when do you split nines?” you need to know the correct answer right away. I know that sounds morbid but that’s how important basic strategy is.

Once you know the basic strategy cold and you’ve practiced on the kitchen table perfectly, go to the casino and flat bet the table minimum and make sure you play perfect bs. I suggest not counting at the casino right away because something people don’t mention often is that raising your bet with the count is psychologically hard at first. Do you remember the first few times you gambled? Do you remember being able to hear your heart beat? Well that’s what it’s like when you put big money out for the first few times. You need to build up to those stakes gradually so you can get comfortable doing it first.

Putting out big money without having acclimated to your physiological response first is not a good idea in my opinion. If you win, you might be tempted to press your luck and thus overbet your bankroll. If you lose, you may go on tilt and this is never a good situation when you’re trying to play a winning game.

I have more to say for the following steps but to prevent this post from being too long I’ll stop for now and maybe post more advice later.

**Freightman** · 05-03-2018, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Stealth

While the intentions of this response are good, this ramp and some of this advice is a recipe for disaster.

First, you do not start playing with your money until you have, at minimum, perfect basic strategy, ability to maintain a running count flawlessly and to convert to a true count and oyu know at least the Illustrious 18/Fab 4 indexes. At that point you are ready to begin to design a bet system that fits your tolerance for risk (bankroll) and provides a modicum of cover to prevent the flame out that will occur very quickly when the OP implements that suggested ramp. It would take me one shoe on his table to confirm he is a counter.

Then make sure you are familiar with how to identify "playable" games. Many times the best AP play is to avoid the game. Rules and penetration are important.

Wish you well, but do your homework before putting your money at risk......or you are just gambling.

The response you were referring to was from CountinCanadian. He is a newer player, has asked several questions. Granted, he needs experience and seasoning. His response, though not in the sense perfect, was, in my view, a serious attempt to contribute back.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 05-03-2018, 10:54 AM

Almost a surprise, but this thread has some really good comments on it.
Stealth's post is particularly excellent.

**Stealth** · 05-03-2018, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

The response you were referring to was from CountinCanadian. He is a newer player, has asked several questions. Granted, he needs experience and seasoning. His response, though not in the sense perfect, was, in my view, a serious attempt to contribute back.

Yes, I am aware CC was responding to a new player, and we should all appreciate a helpful suggestion, my comments were that the suggestions might not be so helpful.

But this kind of civil and informative exchange is why I joined this forum some years back.