On the topic of hustling doubles and splits, would you do it even if it exceeds your

[Fringe]

Say you're playing next to a bigger fish and he gets scared as often players tend to, and you offer to buy his double. Say the count is neutral, slightly one way or another, the correct play for maximum EV is still to double. Yet his bet is higher than your max bet. Say, double your max bet.

Do you do it?

Based on an advantage due to his strong starting hand vs. the dealer upcard, EV wise, it's the correct play to hustle his double?

Real world card hustling people. AP plays around every corner.


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[Freightman]

Say you're playing next to a bigger fish and he gets scared as often players tend to, and you offer to buy his double. Say the count is neutral, slightly one way or another, the correct play for maximum EV is still to double. Yet his bet is higher than your max bet. Say, double your max bet.

Do you do it?

Based on an advantage due to his strong starting hand vs. the dealer upcard, EV wise, it's the correct play to hustle his double?

Real world card hustling people. AP plays around every corner.


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Define what you mean by buying his double.

Your max bet is predicated upon a number of factors, which include EV per hand. You're suggesting, for example, holding 92 or 83 v dealer 8,9 or 10 at a true 1 or 2 - you're max bet being $300, the whales flat bet being $500, for the sake of argument.

You now have a doubling situation, which by definition, exceeds average EV per hand. Provided the scavenged double does not place any undue strain on your bankroll, the move is to take it, if he will let you.

A couple of points here. First, he should offer this double to you. If, by not doubling, a 3 or 4 pops up, he would have the option, probably exercised, to hit again, which he would not have by you doubling. I have been offered these doubles in the past - they are available under a number of different scenarios, and I would gladly take valid doubles.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Do you do it?

If the matching bet will exceed your Max Bet by a big margin,
I would offer 1/2 of the amount permitted so as to have 1/4
of the doubled bet. With Splitsit is trickier as matching bets
must be precisely the same but people seem to like my taking
of one (identified) hand. It appears to be rather "social" as I
can reduce her/his stress and we will have a friendly informal
competition judged by who had the better hand, before and
after the dealer acts!

[Fringe]

Define what you mean by buying his double.

Your max bet is predicated upon a number of factors, which include EV per hand. You're suggesting, for example, holding 92 or 83 v dealer 8,9 or 10 at a true 1 or 2 - you're max bet being $300, the whales flat bet being $500, for the sake of argument.

You now have a doubling situation, which by definition, exceeds average EV per hand. Provided the scavenged double does not place any undue strain on your bankroll, the move is to take it, if he will let you.

A couple of points here. First, he should offer this double to you. If, by not doubling, a 3 or 4 pops up, he would have the option, probably exercised, to hit again, which he would not have by you doubling. I have been offered these doubles in the past - they are available under a number of different scenarios, and I would gladly take valid doubles.

Definition. Excitedly speaking in his language of choice. In this case not English. That I will pay for the entire double amount ( as I place my chips next to his) if he would put his damn hand away, aka, cut that motion for a 'hit' short, and instead double the total of 9 versus that juicy 5 on the table.


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[Fringe]

If the matching bet will exceed your Max Bet by a big margin,
I would offer 1/2 of the amount permitted so as to have 1/4
of the doubled bet. With Splitsit is trickier as matching bets
must be precisely the same but people seem to like my taking
of one (identified) hand. It appears to be rather "social" as I
can reduce her/his stress and we will have a friendly informal
competition judged by who had the better hand, before and
after the dealer acts!

Ah the infamous double for less. Genius.


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[Meistro123]

The edge from a scavenger double is usually so high that even if the wager is a multiple of your max bet you should still generally buy the double in full.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

"buy the double in full."

That is not correct as stated. e.g. At TC ZERO the double may be 9 vs. 3, or
(far worse), A4 vs. 4 where one wants to be Risk Averse with borderline doubles.

It becomes perfectly correct with 11 or 10 vs. a dealer stiff.

[Renzey]

If, by not doubling, a 3 or 4 pops up, he would have the option, probably exercised, to hit again, which he would not have by you doubling. I would gladly take valid doubles.

If you merely go partners with him on the double, then he has relinquished his own right to a second hit, and no beef can arise. It might also be mentioned that it is sometimes correct to go partners on invalid doubles, such as 8 vs. 6, 9 vs. 2, 9 vs. 7, 11 vs. A w/ S17, A/2 vs. 4 & A/3 vs. 4. These are where the move often becomes ethically questionable.

[Freightman]

If you merely go partners with him on the double, then he has relinquished his own right to a second hit, and no beef can arise. It might also be mentioned that it is sometimes correct to go partners on invalid doubles, such as 8 vs. 6, 9 vs. 2, 9 vs. 7, 11 vs. A w/ S17, A/2 vs. 4 & A/3 vs. 4. These are where the move often becomes ethically questionable.

You've raised a very interesting point - similar to the math of buying a table mates surrender.

Example 8v6 which is a basic strategy hit, which becomes a double at plus 1, or risk averse double at plus 3. Sharing a double where basic strategy is simply to hit gives you a huge payoff, where you simply have to win 1 in 4 doubles to break even. You will do far far better than that, where index is achieved and the proper play, not recognized by the ploppy, is to double. Now, if u happen you achieve RA true count if plus 3, your payoff is enormous.

So, the nugget sown is - in addition to the purchase of tablemates surrenders, participating in sub standard doubles also has its merits.

[Meistro123]

TC ZERO the double may be 9 vs. 3, or
(far worse), A4 vs. 4

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/1/

Soft 15 v 4 doubling returns 0.058427

Almost a 6% edge; I'll take my chances.

[Renzey]

Soft 15 v 4 doubling returns

0.058427

Almost a 6% edge; I'll take my chances.

Actually, I think your EV would be half the player's EV if you owned only half the entire double bet. That's 'cause the stated EV is based on the double return divided by the initial bet. Still, you'd need a TC of about +6 to have that kind of edge on your next blind hand coming up. That's why filling in other players' doubles for less is pretty valuable.

But you do have to win 50% of them to break even.

Once, a player next to me had 9 against a deuce. Dealer says, "It's a double". Player says, "Nah, if anybody wants it, go ahead". Doubling carried a 3 or 4% +EV, but I warned that if he caught a deuce, he'd be stuck with 11, and he never could've won any more money unless he had some riding on it too. "I'm not gonna catch a deuce -- take it" he replied. So the player on his other side said, "Here, I'll double it", and did the whole thing. He promptly caught a deuce! Good natured player says, "It's okay, he's gonna bust". Didn't happen.

[Meistro123]

You'd need a TC of about +12 to have that kind of edge on your next blind hand coming up

Depends on the rules but more like TC +10 for say 6 decks S17, DAS (a fairly middle of the road rule-set). And of course with blackjack betting you have to adjust for the variance but a scavenger double is a straight even money wager so you could bet more, given the same edge, than you can on a normal blackjack hand. But anyway in my original comment on this subject I specifically mentioned "most of the time". Most doubles are much more lucrative than A4 v 5 and these more profitable doubles are significantly more frequent as well. There are a lot more ways to make 11 (9,2 8,3, 7,4, 6,5 and their twins) than there is to make A4 and the A4 v 5 and A4 v 6 doubles are much more profitable than A4 v 4. Your edge is going to be very high on most scavenger doubles, so that even if you are a conservative half kelly better you would probably still want to take 6 max bets worth of action on them, especially if you have say a 200 or 300 max bet bankroll.

[Freightman]

What? Are they giving you odds or something? Where I came from when you win 1 bet and lose 3 bets(win 1 in 4 doubles) you are down by 2 bets.

Congrats, you got me, I gave a proportion of breaking even on surrender.

So, if you really want to be a peckerhead, no problem. Personally, I think you're excessuvely temperamental to play this game with me. Quit, while you're behind.