Question for ZenMaster_Flash, Regarding Zen vs Hi-Opt II with ASC

**Equanimity** · 09-13-2017, 09:38 AM

ZMF,

I saw you mention in a thread recently that you once used Zen, and at one point switched over to Hi-Opt II with ASC as you began playing more professionally for more power.

I've been using Zen to play the 6/8 deck shoe games at my local casinos. I'm wondering if I should be making the change as well. I'm trying to decide if the added difficulty is worth it.

Roughly how much edge do you feel is lost playing Zen vs Hi-Opt II with ASC in shoe games? What about Zen vs Hi-Opt II without ASC?

If you have time to share your experience I'd really appreciate it. My throwaway blackjack e-mail is [email protected]

Thank you,

- Equanimity

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 09-13-2017, 09:51 AM

Depending on 'table conditions', the gain from Zen to Hi-Opt II is worth 5% to 15%

That is pragmatically more than you may think it is.

Hi-Opt II without an Ace Side Count is VERY weak. Avoid at all costs.

I will contact via email you momentarily.

**Freightman** · 09-13-2017, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Depending on 'table conditions', the gain from Zen to Hi-Opt II is worth 5% to 15%

That is pragmatically more than you may think it is.

Hi-Opt II without an Ace Side Count is VERY weak. Avoid at all costs.

I will contact via email you momentarily.

Any ace neutral system without a sidecount is - shit.

**DSchles** · 09-13-2017, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Equanimity

ZMF,

I saw you mention in a thread recently that you once used Zen, and at one point switched over to Hi-Opt II with ASC as you began playing more professionally for more power.

I've been using Zen to play the 6/8 deck shoe games at my local casinos. I'm wondering if I should be making the change as well. I'm trying to decide if the added difficulty is worth it.

Roughly how much edge do you feel is lost playing Zen vs Hi-Opt II with ASC in shoe games? What about Zen vs Hi-Opt II without ASC?

If you have time to share your experience I'd really appreciate it. My throwaway blackjack e-mail is [email protected]

Thank you,

- Equanimity

See the charts on p. 172 of BJA3. Hi-Opt II worth about 6%-8% more than Zen in shoe games with a decent spread.

Don

**Equanimity** · 09-13-2017, 01:17 PM

Thank you ZMF, and thank you Don. I did get the book recently! and I did find that chart, but it doesn't agree with the results of some sims I ran for my local games.
I trust your research and experience more than my own attempts at running sims, but I wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

My sims show Zen on par with Hi-Opt II, but I don't think that's the general consensus around here.
My local conditions are different from those in your charts. Either 6 deck shoes with 2 cut off, or 8 decks with 1-2 cut off, so that could be a factor.
I'll post some screenshots showing what CVCX turned up.

Also, I was using a Zen with modified RA indexes I generated vs the canned Hi-Opt II with ASC, so perhaps it wasn't fair. I need to generate RA indexes for Hi-Opt II also.

**seriousplayer** · 09-13-2017, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Equanimity

ZMF,

I saw you mention in a thread recently that you once used Zen, and at one point switched over to Hi-Opt II with ASC as you began playing more professionally for more power.

I've been using Zen to play the 6/8 deck shoe games at my local casinos. I'm wondering if I should be making the change as well. I'm trying to decide if the added difficulty is worth it.

Roughly how much edge do you feel is lost playing Zen vs Hi-Opt II with ASC in shoe games? What about Zen vs Hi-Opt II without ASC?

If you have time to share your experience I'd really appreciate it. My throwaway blackjack e-mail is [email protected]

Thank you,

- Equanimity

Use Zen Count for 6-8 deck games and Hi-OPT II with side count Aces for DD games. Hi-OPT II with ASC full in eight deck games under perform Wong Halves Full.

**stopgambling** · 09-13-2017, 05:35 PM

with a lightning fast dealer can you deck estimate for the aces played ? IDK .

**stopgambling** · 09-13-2017, 05:37 PM

hi opt 2 for Sd and Dd i would say it's totally worth it for me but for 6 deck i just gave up .

**Equanimity** · 09-14-2017, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Equanimity

I'll post some screenshots showing what CVCX turned up.

Upon further inspection, I believe the Hi-Opt II preset I was comparing to was only adjusting for Aces for betting purposes, not for playing decisions.
This is why Hi-Opt II was under performing in my sims.
I know that there's no way they can perform equally when one is employing a sidecount, but I want to see the actual numbers in front of me.

**jimmybond007** · 09-14-2017, 09:20 AM

While on that topic. Does anyone know how to properly sim the playing adjustments with the ace side count? I am told the sample in cvdata is for hiopt1 but I have no idea on how yo populate the multi parameter table for hiopt2 (under playing tab in cvdata, right under the strategy you have selected.)

**Equanimity** · 09-14-2017, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by jimmybond007

While on that topic. Does anyone know how to properly sim the playing adjustments with the ace side count? I am told the sample in cvdata is for hiopt1 but I have no idea on how yo populate the multi parameter table for hiopt2 (under playing tab in cvdata, right under the strategy you have selected.)

wow I LITERALLY just e-mailed Norm asking about this 2 minutes ago. I was trying to do it and I ran into the exact same issue - I don't know how to populate the tables.
Will share results when I get them, or perhaps Norm will respond here.

**Jack Jackson** · 09-14-2017, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by jimmybond007

While on that topic. Does anyone know how to properly sim the playing adjustments with the ace side count? I am told the sample in cvdata is for hiopt1 but I have no idea on how yo populate the multi parameter table for hiopt2 (under playing tab in cvdata, right under the strategy you have selected.)

First, you will need to CREATE a new MP strategy, BEFORE you can sim it..This can be done manually if you know the numbers or you can use Multi-paramater tool i "provided" in a previous thread therefore inserting the numbers yourself, manually into your MP strategy (using the included tables)....

If not, you will need CV index to generate the numbers for you! Define/edit>create and NAME a New playing strategy>Select MP from included strategys>Select Counts>make sure the Ace is checked! Select/check MP in the "index generator" screen..Also MAKE SURE you have hi opt 2 as your primary strategy attached as your playing strategy..Now, CV index will create the NEW playing strategy for you..Once finished! You will find it in the MP strategy(included strategies) that you will attach as your MP (side count strategy)strategy to run your sims and finally and at last, you can now run your sims using the the attached MP strategy that you just named and created..