Side Counting 7's

**Freightman** · 07-11-2017, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Here is a homework assignment for you J.J.

Figure out how many ways the player can have a 2 card (hard) hand of 12, 13, 14.

You will soon see that, as such, the 7's have value for MOST of your hands, while

that does not even consider the value of 7's when the dealer is displaying a 9 or an 8

While you're at it, make note that there are 5 card combos to make 12, and 4 card combos to make either 13 or 14.

Think about that when it comes to index play deviation.

**Jack Jackson** · 07-11-2017, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

Here is a homework assignment for you J.J.

Figure out how many ways the player can have a 2 card (hard) hand of 12, 13, 14.

You will soon see that, as such, the 7's have value for MOST of your hands, while

that does not even consider the value of 7's when the dealer is displaying a 9 or an 8

Ya, i was pretty much agreeing with you here in my previous post..Saying that i was surprised to see that a surplus of 7's HELPS your hand of 12 vs 2 12v3 and even 12 v 4...I was also surprised to see that it neither helped or hurt 15 and 16 vs dealers ten...Of course, ive never side counted 7's before and not sure how they would pan out with a multi-strategy when theyre already reckoned with the RPC count..My bet would be to only count them for side bets only, if theyre already counted..

Thinking back, i think i remember talking to you about this back in the blackjackinfo days...?

**Xothan** · 07-12-2017, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Freightman

As hi lo is an ace reckoned count, ace side count is not used for betting correlation. It does, however, enhance playing efficiency. Accordingly, ASC is really not much value at shoe games, but does enhance pitch game performance.

Yup, totally understand that. So I push out a bet size based on the hi/lo count at the time that the previous round finishes. But then, when it comes time to hit/stay the next hand I'm dealt, how do I add/subtract the ASC from the hi/lo count that I bet with to make the decision? Assuming say a DD game?

**refinery** · 07-13-2017, 06:58 AM

Thanks everyone for the thoughts on this. Since I play 100% shoe games, I think my side count of 7's is only good for side betting. There may be a way to incorporate it into a pitch game but I'm still not entirely sure since the 7 is reckoned in FELT. In any event, this has been helpful.

**Bubbles** · 07-13-2017, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Xothan

Yup, totally understand that. So I push out a bet size based on the hi/lo count at the time that the previous round finishes. But then, when it comes time to hit/stay the next hand I'm dealt, how do I add/subtract the ASC from the hi/lo count that I bet with to make the decision? Assuming say a DD game?

In hilo, you adjust the running count by adding it with the surplus or deficit of aces, then calculating a new TC for playing. An example would be 2 decks have been counted, you've seen 9 aces, the hilo count is 0. For your playing decision, you've seen one more extra ace than you should have, so add that to the RC for a playing RC of +1. Then use the playing RC to calculate a new TC for your playing decision. Similarly, had you seen only 7 aces in the 2 counted decks, with a RC if 0, the playing running count would be -1.

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

I know of zero (0) casual or recreational players who Side
Count Sevens (7s). Amazingly, that holds for Aces as well.

You skipped me. I'm not a pro. I make more annually from my real job. I always side count aces and sometimes I side count 7's too. I am certainly not the norm though.

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**Bubbles** · 07-13-2017, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by moses

Fenix. I hope you don't put a guy through that explanation when he asks you for your phone number. Man, you've got it goin on sis. How do you ever find your car? lol. jk

Did I say something? Maybe you've figured out why guys don't often ask for my number to begin with. What does this have to do with my car? I find my car by making a string of locations in my mind. I need only to retrace my steps.

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**Jack Jackson** · 07-13-2017, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fenix

In hilo, for every surplus or deficit ace you adjust the running count by adding it with the unbalance of aces, then calculating a new TC for playing. An example would be 2 decks have been counted, you've seen 9 aces, the hilo count is 0. For your playing decision, you've seen one more extra ace than you should have, so minus that from the RC for a playing RC of -1. Then use the playing RC to calculate a new TC for your playing decision.

You skipped me. I'm not a pro. I make more annually from my real job. I always side count aces and sometimes I side count 7's too. I am certainly not the norm though.

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Take a different scenario/aproach here...Lets say 4 of 6 decks are sitting in the discard tray and all 24 Aces have been dealt out, and your hi-lo RC count was -12..Now since hi-lo tags the ace at -1 your count would now be +12 if it was tagged at 0....So basically if we were to count every seen ace at +1 it would give the balance of 0 in the hi-lo count..Therefore you should add +1 for every seen ace to your RC...In this case we would be adding +24 to -12 for a net result of +12 aka TC+6 where we would Now be doubling 11vsX and taking insurance...Also add this for your stand/hit decisions, BUT use the primary hi-lo for all other hands..Splittng XXs, doublng 8,9 and 10 etc...

**Bubbles** · 07-13-2017, 11:28 PM

Oh oops. I forgot it gets reversed when it's reckoned in the main count. Sorry. The - 1 in my post should be +1. Thanks for catching that Jack Jackson.

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**ZenMaster_Flash** · 07-14-2017, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Fenix

"2 decks have been counted, you've seen 9 aces, the hilo count is 0. For your playing decision, you've seen one more ace than you should have, so minus that from the RC for a playing RC of -1. Then use the playing RC to calculate a new TC for your playing decision."

The deficit Ace gives you a BETTING, not a PLAYING (running) count of -1
For the majority of hands there will be no alteration of playing decisions.
Not so for many Doubles and some splits and Insurance.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 07-14-2017, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Jackson

"use the primary hi-lo for all other hands..Splittng XXs, doublng 8,9 and 10 etc."

Ignoring Aces with the hands above (and especially 11's) you can do at your own financial peril.

**Bubbles** · 07-14-2017, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

The deficit Ace gives you a BETTING, not a PLAYING (running) count of -1
For the majority of hands there will be no alteration of playing decisions.
Not so for many Doubles and some splits and Insurance.

Not for hi-lo with ASC. The main count is betting and ace adjustments are for playing. Some playing decisions are better made without the normal adjustment because of the behavior of the ace. Ace neural counts, like you and I use, are the ones where aces adjust the betting.

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**ZenMaster_Flash** · 07-14-2017, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Fenix

"Not for hi-lo with ASC"

I guess, having never played with Hi-Lo, that I stand corrected,
even though it seems absurd to me. Hi-Lo with NO Aces or many
Surplus Aces available does not result in adjusted wagering?

**BJGenius007** · 07-14-2017, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

I guess, having never played with Hi-Lo, that I stand corrected,
even though it seems absurd to me. Hi-Lo with NO Aces or many
Surplus Aces available does not result in adjusted wagering?

HiLo is very accurate on betting because its betting TC is very close to optimal betting TC. Having the same equal weight on face and ace means no ace or many surplus aces doesn't affect your betting. No adjustment needed.