Why did the pit boss take the end of the shoe?

[happyjack21]

Personally I would never follow a dealer around. (99 times of 100) IMO I'm not saying that it gave you heat. Probably not. But just something to be aware of. Some pit bosses may consider it an entry-way to collusion if you sit at the SAME dealer every little shift break. It may bring unwanted scrutiny and attention.
You probably got the heat because you went from playing a quarter all day and then next thing the PB sees is you with a bet just under 2 black at the halfway/near end of shoe.
And yeah they were probably counting the rest of the shoe to see if you were counting.
Cheers and don't let the baddies deter you!

[shadroch]

I don't deny that I am fairly new to counting and made that obvious in this post. Not sure what you're getting at?

People who are new to this tend to be overly paranoid and see balrogs in every woodpile. Almost every red chip newcomer thinks the casino is about to drop a house on them. Stick around, you'll see for yourself.

[KJ]

Before I respond to a newcomers posts, I spend a minute examining the persons other posts. This way I get a feel if the person is genuine or not. I'd suggest others start doing this as well.

Ok, I did just that...took a minute and read his few posts. Looks to me like he is claiming to be a long time working man (construction type work), raising a family and barely making the bills for many years. Sounds common enough. He also claims to be long time recreational gambler. No problem there. In the last couple year he started some sort of business or venture that has resulted in a 6 figure income. No specifics of what that might be. (Is this the part you are having problems with Shad?) And now with a little more money he would like to transform his recreational gambling to where he is playing with an advantage rather than making a donation to the casinos. I applaud him on this. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, but I don't see anything that disqualifies him or his statements, or says that he is not worthy of our time. Now, I just read over the few posts briefly, so if I have missed something that is screaming that this guy is a fraud and not worthy of our time and comments, could you be kind enough to point it out, Mr Shad.

[FishingAnd Cards]

Wouldn't 50 hours of play in 10 days be certain to flag some trouble? Your dealer buddy Joe, didn't ease your mind much with "I'm not allowed to talk about it." If he had said "Don't worry. Nothing to do with you." I would not be worried.
How long did it take 2 pitt bosses to go through the shoe? They can't be allowed to remove cards and return them for continued play? I would have remained for a while and maybe got help from the dealer.

That's 3 questions, one of which I can answer - 2 statements, one of which makes sense to me.

I'm here to learn, I have no problem with someone being brutally honest with me, as opposed to telling me what I want to hear. In fact - I am that way in real life, and feel I am doing people a disservice otherwise.


1) 50 hours? 2-16 hour weekends with a few morning sessions during the week to mix it up, too much?
2) The pit bosses took 1-2 minutes to go through the cards.
3) I would imagine they are allowed, just thought someone here had to have experienced it and wanted an answer as to why.

A) yeah it would have been reassuring to have 'Joe' say something like that, but obviously he wasn't allowed to talk about it.
B) help as in?

As far as 'Joe' goes - the reason I enjoy having him deal me is we have constant conversation. Conversation to the point that it's nearly nonstop. I feel if I can keep the count while doing that it's enhancing my craft. The majority of the other casinos/dealers I go against I don't encounter that, so I feel it will make things that much easier, during those opportunities.

[Baberuth]

I would be hoping the dealer would somehow let me know everything was OK with me. I don't know why they wouldn't just back you off instead of going through the end of the shoe with 2 pitt bosses or got surveillance involved in which they would have locked on you.

[FishingAnd Cards]

Personally I would never follow a dealer around. (99 times of 100) IMO I'm not saying that it gave you heat. Probably not. But just something to be aware of. Some pit bosses may consider it an entry-way to collusion if you sit at the SAME dealer every little shift break. It may bring unwanted scrutiny and attention.
You probably got the heat because you went from playing a quarter all day and then next thing the PB sees is you with a bet just under 2 black at the halfway/near end of shoe.
And yeah they were probably counting the rest of the shoe to see if you were counting.
Cheers and don't let the baddies deter you!

Thanks, somehow I missed this responding to others. I'm done there til March anyway, I have table comps and buffets for the whole month of Feb at another. What you say was starting to creep into my mind because he's dealt me so much the last 2 weekends. Advice taken and appreciated. Cheers to you as well.

Ok, I did just that...took a minute and read his few posts. Looks to me like he is claiming to be a long time working man (construction type work), raising a family and barely making the bills for many years. Sounds common enough. He also claims to be long time recreational gambler. No problem there. In the last couple year he started some sort of business or venture that has resulted in a 6 figure income. No specifics of what that might be. (Is this the part you are having problems with Shad?) And now with a little more money he would like to transform his recreational gambling to where he is playing with an advantage rather than making a donation to the casinos. I applaud him on this. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, but I don't see anything that disqualifies him or his statements, or says that he is not worthy of our time. Now, I just read over the few posts briefly, so if I have missed something that is screaming that this guy is a fraud and not worthy of our time and comments, could you be kind enough to point it out, Mr Shad.

Thanks again KJ. I always enjoy your posts and really enjoyed your "10 year plan" post (I need to put one together, if nothing else for sh1ts and grins provided the good Lord keeps me around another 10).

All of the above is correct. I guess I never thought a whole about money, it always seemed to come at the right time, even if I did have to sweat it out EVERY time. A year and 1/2 ago when an accountant did my taxes, he said to me "you do realize you jumped up to the 90% income don't you?" I told him of the numerous opportunities I had to make that many times that, but couldn't take the stress, so turned them down. It doubled this past year on it's own while I weaned myself away from it and handed it off to my wife and other help.

I am now at a point where I can spend 2 hours a night making sure "all the ducks are in a row", so I like to go to casinos to let go of the stress. You are correct that - in my frugal ways - I would like to play more, and if possible, not help build casinos. I can't say what I do in public, because I would be easily traceable. If there is any doubt, I would be willing to share such information with KJ, as I feel it would stay there.

[FishingAnd Cards]

People who are new to this tend to be overly paranoid and see balrogs in every woodpile. Almost every red chip newcomer thinks the casino is about to drop a house on them. Stick around, you'll see for yourself.

I get that, I've read it enough on here. I'm far from paranoid at this point, I'm no threat.....yet. I just didn't get the "genuine" part?

[KJ]

I would be hoping the dealer would somehow let me know everything was OK with me. I don't know why they wouldn't just back you off instead of going through the end of the shoe with 2 pitt bosses or got surveillance involved in which they would have locked on you.

Some places really do play games. They send warning signals or take measures designed to get you to leave on your own, so they don't have to back you off. Other places take the complete opposite, no nonsense approach. Boom..."No more blackjack, sir, you are too good for us or your game is too strong". Just a different approach or mentality.

[Baberuth]

Thanks KJ. Is it then best to leave right away or wait a few minutes? It doesn't sound like the "EYE" was called in which might mean he would probably be OK after staying away for a while and making sure of a different shift when he did return.

[KJ]

Thanks KJ. Is it then best to leave right away or wait a few minutes? It doesn't sound like the "EYE" was called in which might mean he would probably be OK after staying away for a while and making sure of a different shift when he did return.

I don't know Babe. It could be like Moo was saying. Some of these tactics are designed to see your reaction. Your reaction could confirm or deny their suspicions. For example, take cutting the deck in half. You just finished a shoe where the count went significantly positive. You end at or near max bet as the cut card comes out. The pit comes over and whispers in the dealers ear. After the shuffle, the dealer cuts the deck in half (50% penetration). What do you do? If you stay and play you are wasting time, money and energy playing a neg EV situation. If you color up and leave immediately, you are confirming what might only be a suspicion. Many players make the decision to play through another shoe or at least part of the shoe and make some excuse and exit. Luckily, my style of play, leaving at the shuffle after placing a high wager, means I won't face that problem, nor have to make that decision.

[blacksheep]

If you color up and leave immediately, you are confirming what might only be a suspicion.

I think if you witness this you are confiming much more than just a suspicion. Why else would they do this unless they think they are on to you? Yeah, they may just be gauging your reaction, but they're doing it for some reason. This has only happened to me one time when I was just starting out and it was obvious they thought I was counting and wanted to see how I would respond. The "counter catcher" from the high limit room had been brought out onto my low limit table to do this. I played through the next shoe anyway, since I didn't want to be obvious about noticing this, and the pit boss was right there asking the dealer how my play had gone since the change. Luckily, it only lasted one shoe and hasn't happened again but the purpose was obvious.

[shadroch]

I think if you witness this you are confiming much more than just a suspicion. Why else would they do this unless they think they are on to you? Yeah, they may just be gauging your reaction, but they're doing it for some reason. This has only happened to me one time when I was just starting out and it was obvious they thought I was counting and wanted to see how I would respond. The "counter catcher" from the high limit room had been brought out onto my low limit table to do this. I played through the next shoe anyway, since I didn't want to be obvious about noticing this, and the pit boss was right there asking the dealer how my play had gone since the change. Luckily, it only lasted one shoe and hasn't happened again but the purpose was obvious.

How did you know the dealer from the hi limit area was "the counter catcher"?
There are any number of reasons why the pit would do as the OP said, esp. if a player is following a dealer from table to table. Counting down the remaining cards is only one of them.

[blacksheep]

How did you know the dealer from the hi limit area was "the counter catcher"?
There are any number of reasons why the pit would do as the OP said, esp. if a player is following a dealer from table to table. Counting down the remaining cards is only one of them.

I was referring to being half-shoed, as KJ was in the post that I quoted. I can't think of too many reasons they would do this except to disrupt a suspected counter/AP. The dealer in question was making it pretty obvious that he was trying to assess whether I was counting or not. He was dealing lightning fast and verbally making a checklist of plays as the pitboss stood by watching - "Ok, so you're standing on 16's against a 10" - things like that. "I believe I'm the resident expert on this table buddy" is one quote I remember. They were clearly watching me. I took a break for a while and had a couple of beers while I played VP at the bar. When I returned, the dealer, who had stopped his shenanigans and was still on the table, said something like "you play better after you've had a beer or two". He hadn't left the table so they were watching what I was doing. I play this place a lot now and this guy is almost always in the high limit room and is known for trying to out counters.