Why did the pit boss take the end of the shoe?

[FishingAnd Cards]

Friday night/Sat morning I was playing a local casino. I have been working at becoming an AP player and had played from 9pm, betting mostly 1-3 units. 5 O'clock rolls around and just me and another player are left at a table they want to close down, so they tell us they have seats reserved for us at another table.

Fine, I move to another table and start making a few $ - the dealer I had played with since 11, and I know fairly well, sees me at a table across the pit. He says "hey 'Fred' I'm over here". I moved over to his table, decided it was late and I really needed to get moving along. I started betting 3 units minimum - the counted skyrockets, I'm spreading 6-18 units, doubling down and killing it. Up comes the yellow card, and the pit-boss says "let me have the rest of the shoe".

He and another pit-boss turn their backs to the table and go through it. I ask dealer 'Joe' "what's up'? He says "I'm not allowed to talk about it". Was it heat?

[moo321]

Wait, what exactly happened? Did they go through the cutoffs and start counting them down? Or were they changing the cards or something?

They could have been looking to see if you were counting, or they could have been looking to see if someone removed or marked cards. Were they looking at the front or the back of the cards.

[T. Dane]

If the pit is changing cards or if the table is shutting down then it is not heat. If the pit takes the remaining cards and the same cards are used or the table remains open, then yes it is heat. It's called Discard Rack Countdown (covered in my book Behind The Black Dome). Floor is trying to see what the count was instead of calling surv and asking for a review. Hope this helps.

[KJ]

I certainly would be concerned if I were you F&C. Never seen it happen quite the way you described, but I have seen pit guys start flipping through the discard rack just after I raised my wager. While, I don't know all the duties and responsibilities of the pit, but I can think of no other reason for either the scenario I mentioned, nor the one you mentioned than they want to see the makeup of the cards remaining when you raised your bet. If it were me, I would probably treat it similar to a backoff and take a short break from that location and a little longer break from that particular shift trying to stay clear of that pit guy for a while.

[FishingAnd Cards]

Wait, what exactly happened? Did they go through the cutoffs and start counting them down? Or were they changing the cards or something?

They could have been looking to see if you were counting, or they could have been looking to see if someone removed or marked cards. Were they looking at the front or the back of the cards.

Couldn't tell which side, other than they were going through them. They turned their backs to me while doing it.

If the pit is changing cards or if the table is shutting down then it is not heat. If the pit takes the remaining cards and the same cards are used or the table remains open, then yes it is heat. It's called Discard Rack Countdown (covered in my book Behind The Black Dome). Floor is trying to see what the count was instead of calling surv and asking for a review. Hope this helps.

Exactly what happened, thanks.

Also, it could be a bluff. Lots of floors and bosses will grab the discards and pretend to count them to see how you react.

Well I backed off my bet because it was a new shoe, other than that, I just asked 'Joe' what was up?

I certainly would be concerned if I were you F&C. Never seen it happen quite the way you described, but I have seen pit guys start flipping through the discard rack just after I raised my wager. While, I don't know all the duties and responsibilities of the pit, but I can think of no other reason for either the scenario I mentioned, nor the one you mentioned than they want to see the makeup of the cards remaining when you raised your bet. If it were me, I would probably treat it similar to a backoff and take a short break from that location and a little longer break from that particular shift trying to stay clear of that pit guy for a while.

I had never seen anything like it myself which was why I asked. I have my hours in over the last 20 years playing and have seen a few oddities, but not that. I'll take your advice and move around. I logged about 50 hours the last 10 days at this place.

[moo321]

Also, it could be a bluff. Lots of floors and bosses will grab the discards and pretend to count them to see how you react.

[KJ]

Also, it could be a bluff. Lots of floors and bosses will grab the discards and pretend to count them to see how you react.

Good point, Moo. I probably would not react at all, but would exit at that point (shuffle) anyway. I would be tempted to say something along the lines of "hey what are you doing, removing some of the Aces?" Especially if there were other players around. The casino's have procedures set up for opening tables and changing the cards to specifically show that all of the cards are there, in an effort to prove the integrity of the game. To have pit personnel handling the cards away from the table with their back turned to players and table, compromises that effort and that integrity. So as I said, I would be tempted to say something along those lines, but I wouldn't. That type of response is not beneficial as it only makes you more memorable.

[RS]

Just a thought, but, wouldn't surveillance & the PB(s) be expecting him to "take a break to return later" after such heat? But if he were a regular ploppy, he would return the next day, and surely give back some of his winnings... no? (I'm not suggesting you do this, but asking the more-experienced what they think about this.)

[shadroch]

Before I respond to a newcomers posts, I spend a minute examining the persons other posts. This way I get a feel if the person is genuine or not. I'd suggest others start doing this as well.

[FishingAnd Cards]

Before I respond to a newcomers posts, I spend a minute examining the persons other posts. This way I get a feel if the person is genuine or not. I'd suggest others start doing this as well.

I don't deny that I am fairly new to counting and made that obvious in this post. Not sure what you're getting at?

[shadroch]

I don't deny that I am fairly new to counting and made that obvious in this post. Not sure what you're getting at?

People who are new to this tend to be overly paranoid and see balrogs in every woodpile. Almost every red chip newcomer thinks the casino is about to drop a house on them. Stick around, you'll see for yourself.

[FishingAnd Cards]

People who are new to this tend to be overly paranoid and see balrogs in every woodpile. Almost every red chip newcomer thinks the casino is about to drop a house on them. Stick around, you'll see for yourself.

I get that, I've read it enough on here. I'm far from paranoid at this point, I'm no threat.....yet. I just didn't get the "genuine" part?

[KJ]

Before I respond to a newcomers posts, I spend a minute examining the persons other posts. This way I get a feel if the person is genuine or not. I'd suggest others start doing this as well.

Ok, I did just that...took a minute and read his few posts. Looks to me like he is claiming to be a long time working man (construction type work), raising a family and barely making the bills for many years. Sounds common enough. He also claims to be long time recreational gambler. No problem there. In the last couple year he started some sort of business or venture that has resulted in a 6 figure income. No specifics of what that might be. (Is this the part you are having problems with Shad?) And now with a little more money he would like to transform his recreational gambling to where he is playing with an advantage rather than making a donation to the casinos. I applaud him on this. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, but I don't see anything that disqualifies him or his statements, or says that he is not worthy of our time. Now, I just read over the few posts briefly, so if I have missed something that is screaming that this guy is a fraud and not worthy of our time and comments, could you be kind enough to point it out, Mr Shad.