Comments on a quote to a tip hustling pit...

[LVBear584]

In Las Vegas and many other places, no dealers go for their own. An occasional visitor to those places is throwing money into the garbage can by tipping anything at all. Not only are many (most?) dealers unappreciative of reasonable tips, all tips are shared with many other dealers. Some places, like Wynn, even include the floorpeople in the tip pool.

Here is an old post originally made on BJ21.com Green Chip, which explains some of my thinking on no tipping.

GC: General

No tipping -- dealers are overpaid
By:LVBear584 <[email protected]>
Date: 2/23/2015, 11:31 am

Dealers are overpaid. At minimum wage, adding the excessive tipping most ploppies engage in, their actual wage is around $12 per hour at the worst dumps (about $25,000 per year), and around $35 to $40 per hour at the carpet joints (about $75,000 to $85,000 per year).


The high-end dealers make more than most police officers, nurses, or teachers make. Yet the dealer has a job that requires no formal education, no real skills, and only a few weeks of training. Many dealers don't even bother to learn to speak English, and many have minimal or NO "people skills."


Yet people line up to take dealer jobs. Why? Because dealing is a better job than they are able to find elsewhere. There are a few exceptions, particularly bright young people who may be dealers for a short time while going to school or getting ready to embark on other careers, but need immediate employment.


Granted, it's an unpleasant environment and lousy work, frequently dealing with disrespectful, hostile, and often drunken members of the public. I doubt if I, personally, would last a single day as a dealer. But that doesn't take away the fact that there is no dealer shortage anywhere that I'm aware of. So the job must not be that bad for those willing to do it.


I tip generously those who provide a service to me, in positions where tipping is normal and customary, such as wait staff in restaurants, and cocktail waitresses in casinos. But I don't tip a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic. They certainly provide a service -- why don't they deserve tips, but a dealer does?


In thousands of hours in casinos, I can think of only a handful of times when dealers went out of their way to provide me with any quantifiable service that should earn them tips -- better pen, not loudly shouting "checks play," dealing as quickly as they were able, etc. Most dealers are on auto-pilot; normal working people trying to get through their routine workday. Few know anything about advantage play, and fewer still would recognize the offering of a tip as a subtle request for the better playing conditions that are within their power to dispense.


For the ploppy, who is in the casino to be "entertained," and is willing to lose his or her money for the dubious "entertainment value" they receive, the people skills of the dealer may add value to their entertainment experience. Such a person should, and almost always does, tip the dealer. They are receiving a service from the dealer, in that their time at the table is more pleasant. The ploppy has negative EV, and is eventually going to lose all his or her money. I'd rather the dealer gets some of that money than the casino owner.


For an advantage player who is in a casino simply to make money, tipping is a waste, except for the instances that it provides cover and/or longevity. I don't care if the dealer is pleasant or not. In fact, my favorite type of dealer is one who deals quickly, and never says a word -- a deaf mute would be the perfect dealer. No useless, idle chitchat, no nosy questions. Just the cards flying as fast as possible, to maximize my hands-per-hour.


Other than at the rare times when tipping buys cover and/or longevity, it's just another business expense that can usually be cut out. Would you pay a higher price for gasoline, because the gas station cashier is pleasant? Would you pay a higher price than you have to for any commodity product? Needlessly giving away a portion of your profit is the same thing. It directly affects your bottom line. I don't see the point in deliberately lowering profit for no good reason.
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I know some disagree with me, even my friend Don Schlesinger.

[Three]

The service performed by dealers is simply that they are
dealing the game that people are choosing to play.


A person simply dealing a game is not doing a service, they are doing a job. If no one sits at their table, they are still considered a dealer, but is anyone walking by going to give them a tip? Sometimes you hear how the dealer gave someone $10,000 and never got tipped. Well, let's call a spade a spade, if any dealer wants to give me 10k, I will gladly give them 5k. When I win 10k, it is because I won, and the dealer lost, and they gave me nothing!!!

That being said about them being a service to me; I would have to agree that tips can get you things from some dealers, but it would be a bribe.

333 is right, not so much about tipping those people, but more about showing that you appreciate their effort.

The service performed by waitresses is simply that they are
waiting on a set of tables that people may choosing to eat at.


A waitress simply delivering food and drinks is not doing a service, they are doing a job. If no one sits at their table, they are still considered a waitress, but is anyone walking by going to give them a tip? Sometimes you hear how the waitresses gave someone the best food they ever had and never got tipped. Well, let's call a spade a spade, if any waitress wants to cook me a great meal, I will gladly give them half of it. When I eat a great meal, it is because the kitchen staff prepared it perfectly, and the waitress had nothing to do with that!!!

That being said about them being a service to me; I tip them based on their service not the food and I have to agree that tips can get you things from waitresses and bartenders, but it would be a bribe. But that doesn't stop me from tipping my waitress or bartender. Just like I don't like getting a misdeal negating my already dealt BJ because I am a stiff, I don't like people messing with my food or drink.

[Talmadge]

[QUOTE=LVBear584;221566]In Las Vegas and many other places, no dealers go for their own. An occasional visitor to those places is throwing money into the garbage can by tipping anything at all. Not only are many (most?) dealers unappreciative of reasonable tips, all tips are shared with many other dealers. Some places, like Wynn, even include the floorpeople in the tip pool.

After my first recent visit to vegas i have to agree with this. A lot of the dealers that i saw getting tipped were unapreciative and not very receptive. A lot seemed to hardly acknowledge it. Out of all the casino's i played, Hooters was the only place were dealers were allowed to keep their own tips.

[Three]

I don't frequent Vegas but all the places I go share tips and almost nobody has a poor attitude toward tips.

[LVBear584]

I generally tip 10% of a profit and lunch money in a loss. So it's a decent barometer for game selection. If I wouldn't buy them lunch, why play? There is always the awkward moment when they switch dealers after i've just sat down to play. I never know quite what to do with that one.

Perhaps I'm cheap. But tipping is my largest monthly expense. A very nice car payment.

So if you win $1000 in a session, you tip $100? Or is there a limit to your extreme generosity?

[LVBear584]

I don't frequent Vegas but all the places I go share tips and almost nobody has a poor attitude toward tips.

Other than having to deal with deer carcasses, it seems you live in dealer paradise.

[Three]

Other than having to deal with deer carcasses, it seems you live in dealer paradise.

I am not sure everyone would agree with that but I have honed my skills of working dealers over time. It takes time to train them so you can't just show up unknown and get what you want. Some learn a lot quicker than others. Many look for dealers that give the best pen. I look for a bunch of other things from dealers that are at least as important as pen.

[pilotzone]

Yes, best look for the best of the best!

[pilotzone]

If im playing black then yes. It usually means ive got a good dealer playing a fair game. I dont hit the pit for $1k in a single session at a $25 table. That's for the NFLer. Not For Long player.

I don't know how you could not hit the casino for 1000$ on a 25$ table, even with a small spread, I would win 1000$ or more in one hand, a few splits, some doubles, already 1000$.

At 10%, I will deal to you. If nothing else, a free lunch.

[Three]

Misquoting again. Kevin. I am not sure Norm would approve.

Yes, best look for the best of the best!

[pilotzone]

[Gronbog]

Writing a post resembling a previous post in order to inject humour is one thing. I believe that T3 did this within the past week. Copy+Paste+Edit is the right way to go about this. What you have done is to use the quote feature which attaches the OPs name to it. In one case you then edited it to say the exact opposite of was really said. In the second case you changed the post to be degrading toward women. Casual readers will read these and incorrectly attribute the ideas to the OP. This is not cool!

[Dog Hand]

My problem with KevinB's "misquotes" is that I read quotes in posts only if I have not just read the original quoted post. If some of you had not pointed out the misquotes, I would not have seen them.

I also agree with Gronbog that this practice is deceptive and should be actively discouraged. I would NOT recommend that quotes be made uneditable (I often shorten quotes using the <snip> approach); instead I would hope that moral suasion alone would be sufficient.

Dog Hand