The irrelevance of Advantage Players by Nicholas Colon

**Three** · 05-02-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by BoSox

Tthree, just because the casinos cannot figure out what you are up to, when they associate your face as being a winning player, there is not going to be a red carpet treatment.

Evidence says to the contrary. Lots of bad players win. We see it every day. Only a stupid casino acts because you win. Smart ones know that as long as they keep a player playing at a disadvantage coming back things will fall in line. They also know most counters are losing players for a wide variety of reasons, so just being suspected of counting in and of itself doesn't mean they should act.

Originally Posted by BoSox

The bottom line, is all that matters to the casinos, and your play, and results will speak for itself. Why would they take a little longer look/ risk at your game when there are millions of ploppies? I think your above quote is not only wrong but silly as well.

All I know is they do. I don't need to know why.

I think it is because they don't care if I count cards. They only care if my counting cards threatens their employment status. After all its not their money. I think most feel sick being a part of separating people from money they can't afford to loss. It eases their conscience when they can allow someone to win if it doesn't threaten their job. They only care if not acting against me will get them in trouble. To get them not to act you must play a smaller spread, have a smaller top bet and have an apparent win structure that they are comfortable with (which they don't see as threatening). Obviously certain counts are better suited to this end. Also you may have to do things that look stupid or costly. The trick is to do things that look stupid or things that look costly from the perspective of the count they are using to observe you but are plus EV or look really costly but cost almost nothing. If your count is too similar to theirs there is no way to do either without it either being costly, or stupid, or both. That is why the longevity player chooses counts as different as possible from what the casino staff use to evaluate you, so the longevity players have the information needed to do such things. Slash and burn players should care less about such issues. Those that choose similar counts never get to see the reality described in this paragraph.

I play very carefully in places that don't know me. Once they decided I am not a threat I can play more aggressively when our counts both agree on the same play. They usually don't take too long to make their decision. Then they associate my face with some dumb shit they don't need to be concerned about. There are a lot of things you can do to hide the fact that your are winning but you need them to track you to do most of them. If they aren't tracking you they watch a lot more closely.

**BoSox** · 05-03-2017, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Tthree

All I know is they do. I don't need to know why.

I think it is because they don't care if I count cards. They only care if my counting cards threatens their employment status. After all its not their money. I think most feel sick being a part of separating people from money they can't afford to loss. It eases their conscience when they can allow someone to win if it doesn't threaten their job.

They have a conscience? This is all news to me. I always thought showing any signs of compassion by a individual who works in the pit would result in a short employment life, for that type of job.

Originally Posted by Tthree

They only care if not acting against me will get them in trouble. To get them not to act you must play a smaller spread, have a smaller top bet and have an apparent win structure that they are comfortable with (which they don't see as threatening). Obviously certain counts are better suited to this end. Also you may have to do things that look stupid or costly. The trick is to do things that look stupid or things that look costly from the perspective of the count they are using to observe you but are plus EV or look really costly but cost almost nothing.

A lot of baloney, and over exaggeration as far as I am concerned. Tthree, you as well as myself often win, and lose thousands of dollars playing through even one shoe, and all that matters to the pit crew is the results of your play. Because, our results have a real effect on the bottom line, that reflects some of the other ploppie losses.

**Three** · 05-03-2017, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by BoSox

They have a conscience? This is all news to me. I always thought showing any signs of compassion by a individual who works in the pit would result in a short employment life, for that type of job.

something about your comportment or the way you play must bring that out because I find only about 5% fit your description. Perhaps different regions of the country make different employment decisions.

Originally Posted by BoSox

Tthree, you as well as myself often win, and lose thousands of dollars playing through even one shoe, and all that matters to the pit crew is the results of your play. Because, our results have a real effect on the bottom line, that reflects some of the other ploppie losses.

I find they don't worry about the damage you do in one shoe but rather the damage you do in a day. That is what I see all the time. You can win $5K in a shoe and bolt without issue but win $5K spread over many shoes can cause more problems. Your should look like someone that wins far less than that in a day. The key to longevity is structuring apparent session wins, daily wins and wins over longer periods. The casino knows that betting big will result in some large wins and losses in a shoe. That doesn't concern them. O r at least it shouldn't. The degree of threat of an individual is related to a bigger picture. If your only big daily wins come in one shoe they shouldn't consider that a threat. Maybe I am used to better trained casino staff in terms of protecting games. They should be worrying about that guy that tries to win $5K+ every visit or as much as possible in the shortest amount of time. A patron that leaves well before that point is not a threat. They are more like good advertising to the losing players at the table or watching.

**Bubbles** · 05-03-2017, 12:47 PM

I've ran into pit bosses that care and then act cold. I called one of them on it and he explained he really likes me, and would like to chat and be friendly, but the cameras are watching and he's not allowed to be nice right now. I've met some that are really nice people, they just have a job and sometimes it requires them to be cold towards people they'd really rather not be. Not all of them are heartless.

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**Freightman** · 05-03-2017, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Fenix

I've ran into pit bosses that care and then act cold. I called one of them on it and he explained he really likes me, and would like to chat and be friendly, but the cameras are watching and he's not allowed to be nice right now. I've met some that are really nice people, they just have a job and sometimes it requires them to be cold towards people they'd really rather not be. Not all of them are heartless.

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I want to make sure that I understand.
The pit boss is not allowed to be nice right now, ergo, he needs to be an asshole for the camera. When he us allowed to be nice, when profits permit, he can become a nice guy, and do so while the camera is watching.

So, EITS can signal him with a bell attached to his schmekl which alerts him that he can change demeanour. Wow - talk about a shitty job.

**Bubbles** · 05-03-2017, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Freightman

I want to make sure that I understand.
The pit boss is not allowed to be nice right now, ergo, he needs to be an asshole for the camera. When he us allowed to be nice, when profits permit, he can become a nice guy, and do so while the camera is watching.

So, EITS can signal him with a bell attached to his schmekl which alerts him that he can change demeanour. Wow - talk about a shitty job.

Basically. His boss is an asshole.

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**Three** · 05-03-2017, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Fenix

but the cameras are watching and he's not allowed to be nice right now

It sounds like he is telling you they are watching you.

**Freightman** · 05-03-2017, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tthree

It sounds like he is telling you they are watching you.

I don't necessarily think so, her comments would have been a bit different. I was going to respond back to her - I've never really observed the phenomenon, the question being do stores actually tell their critters to turn off or turn on the charm. From my view, the critter is either a decent sort or an asshole. That being said, there are critters who like me, and there are critters who don't.

**Three** · 05-03-2017, 06:24 PM

I think he likes her and was telling her surveillance was watching her and he was supposed to ignore her so she would act freely for the EITS to get a true look at uninhibited play. I know when the Floor ignores your table that is usually because the EITS is analyzing your play and the Floor knows this. This realization has saved my ass more than once.

**Bubbles** · 05-03-2017, 07:54 PM

I've only observed this particular hot/cold thing in one store. Everywhere else people have been more consistent.

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RS · 05-03-2017, 08:34 PM

I don't really try to talk to bosses or floor people too often, so I don't have much experience in that field, per se. But when I did deal (at both stores I dealt at), if the pit had been losing for that day (or the week, yikes), and the CSM walked into the pit, it went from floor personnel saying the regular encouragement type stuff to make players feel good or bet more, to being more strict and "hit the back wall shooter, every roll, both dice" or BS they say at blackjack table, "you can't reach your hand over the chips" or "only 1 hand on the cards" or just pretending to be hawking a table because someone would have a slight bet variation.

There's also a chance the boss was just throwing EITS under the bus to save face, type of thing. Sort'a like when a PB or host says something like, "I'd really like to give you the comp, I really would, but my boss......"

**cc12b** · 05-04-2017, 02:02 PM

Before you blame the casino you should look at APs as whole specially the authors of AP books. The titles of their books sound scary to them: Blackjack for blood with the bloody sword. BJ attack with explosion and fire in the casino. Bring down the house. Beat the dealer. Black belt in BJ, to name a few. All promise you would make tons of money from casinos. If I was owner or or share holder of a casino I would do all things to protect my money like bar or flat bet anyone who consistently winning like T3 regardless how he play, crazy or not. Just my 2c.

**Freightman** · 05-04-2017, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by cc12b

Before you blame the casino you should look at APs as whole specially the authors of AP books. The titles of their books sound scary to them: Blackjack for blood with the bloody sword. BJ attack with explosion and fire in the casino. Bring down the house. Beat the dealer. Black belt in BJ, to name a few. All promise you would make tons of money from casinos. If I was owner or or share holder of a casino I would do all things to protect my money like bar or flat bet anyone who consistently winning like T3 regardless how he play, crazy or not. Just my 2c.

Yes, it's a war. Understand that the casino have one main goal as it pertains to you, and that is to empty your wallet.