How does the dealer handle the following case?

**Skyler62** · 04-03-2017, 05:29 AM

For the past few years, I've been writing a BJ simulation program (as a hobby) and I'm currently trying to improve my algorithm by making it simpler and easier to understand. I'd like to ask for some help with one particular aspect of the algorithm and I'd like to do that by giving you one specific set of circumstances and then asking what the dealer needs to do in those circumstances.

Please allow me to give you a specific example that involves Surrender (although similar situations arise with the dealer peeking and not peeking). We can talk about peeking later if anyone feels the need.

Suppose you are playing in a casino that has very loose rules for splitting and doubling. You can split and resplit any number of times and you can double on most any hand at all. Suppose you are the only player at a $10 table that is using an 8-deck shoe. Now suppose the first thing that happens after the shoe is shuffled is that you are dealt a pair of 8s and the dealer is showing an up card valued at 10.

Now suppose that you split your 8s and keep on re-splitting until you have been dealt all 32 of the 8s from the shoe. So, you would then have 32 split-hands. We'll ignore the issue of doubling for now. But it may come up further on in this example. This means that instead of wagering the original $10, you have now wagered a total of $320. I hope I've done my math correctly.

Now, here is the question: If the dealer's bottom card is a 6, the dealer would have a total of 16. The dealer would normally hit that 16 hand. But, since all the split-hands have been surrendered, does the dealer need to do anything more? Does the dealer need to hit that 16 hand? Or can the dealer just proceed to the next round?

Under similar circumstances, what if one player does not surrender every one of their split-hands? Suppose just one player decides to stand on just one split-hand. Would the dealer then be compelled to finish processing their hand? By "processing" I mean the dealer would hit their hand when the rules call for it to be hit.

Oh my gosh! It seems like often, when I post a question in this forum, the answer soon comes to me after I make the post.

This particular question is probably similar to asking when only one player is playing at a table and that player busts their hand, does the dealer need to finish processing their hand? Meaning, is it possible the player may tie the dealer if the dealer then goes bust as well? Or can the dealer just take the player's wager and forget about doing anything further with their own hand?

I guess it's also similar to asking if there are several players at the table and they all go bust on all of their hands, does the dealer automatically win all the wagers? Or does the dealer have to finish playing their own hand and take the chance of busting as well?

**Norm** · 04-03-2017, 05:49 AM

If there are no player hands left, having all been surrendered or busted or paid, there is no reason for the dealer to hit. The unusual exception is if there is some bonus or side bet requiring a hit.

**Meistro123** · 04-03-2017, 05:50 AM

You skipped a step; what happened after we split? We still have to resolve the 32 hands by taking cards on them. I have never played at a casino where surrender was allowed after split, but assuming it was, and we got sevens on all our eights, and surrendered them all, then the hand would be over and the dealer would not resolve their hand.

Usually the casino caps the number of splits to 3 (4 total hands) but some places do allow infinite re-splitting.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-03-2017, 05:52 AM

File this under "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

Does UNLIMITED pair splitting exist? Not in my (vast) experience.

Playing full-time, in countless venues, for decades, I have never seen it.

You can normally split your pairs 2 or 3 times. Generally, Aces are not re-splittable.

Late Surrender is never permitted after a split, even in Spanish21.

**Norm** · 04-03-2017, 06:04 AM

LV Club used to allow split to 8 hands or infinite, can't remember which. Both amount to virtually the same thing.

No opinion on the angel density problem.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-03-2017, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Norm

"LV Club used to allow split to 8 hands or infinite"

Yeah, but not only is beyond 4 hands very rare (I did pull 5 eights the other day)

the L V Club offered a game strange in a couple of ways. They even advertised a

game dealt 100% ... but the shoe had 100 decks (as I recall).

**AndretheGiant** · 04-03-2017, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

File this under "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

Does UNLIMITED pair splitting exist? Not in my (vast) experience.

Playing full-time, in countless venues, for decades, I have never seen it.

You can normally split your pairs 2 or 3 times. Generally, Aces are not re-splittable.

Late Surrender is never permitted after a split, even in Spanish21.

Mohegan Sun in CT allowed unlimited resplits on 2 through 9s.
I Don't know if they still do.

**Skyler62** · 04-03-2017, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash

File this under "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

Does UNLIMITED pair splitting exist? Not in my (vast) experience.

Playing full-time, in countless venues, for decades, I have never seen it.

You can normally split your pairs 2 or 3 times. Generally, Aces are not re-splittable.

Late Surrender is never permitted after a split, even in Spanish21.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that you have a huge amount of experience.

The think is, the fact that almost all casinos do one thing or another doesn't mean much when writing a simulation. A good simulation will encompass any and all weird options. I have identified about 50 different options and I'm trying to include them all so that if someone wants to simulate playing with some strange set of options, I hope to accommodate them.

Also, if I want to test various theories about which casinos may be more profitable than others, it's important that my simulation will be able to accommodate most any possible option.

I'm guessing most people would never be able to guess which options are the most difficult to handle. So far, my experience has been that some of the more simple options are the most difficult to program.

Thank goodness it's just a hobby.

**Freightman** · 04-03-2017, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Skyler62

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that you have a huge amount of experience.

The think is, the fact that almost all casinos do one thing or another doesn't mean much when writing a simulation. A good simulation will encompass any and all weird options. I have identified about 50 different options and I'm trying to include them all so that if someone wants to simulate playing with some strange set of options, I hope to accommodate them.

Your goal above will subject you to an infinite life of coding. Just keep in mind the old 80-20 rule. Adjusted for your purpose, this means that 80% of the sims will come from 20% of the coding. Beyond that, its diminIshing returns, and you have to decide where to cut the line.

**Skyler62** · 04-03-2017, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by Meistro123

You skipped a step; what happened after we split? We still have to resolve the 32 hands by taking cards on them. I have never played at a casino where surrender was allowed after split, but assuming it was, and we got sevens on all our eights, and surrendered them all, then the hand would be over and the dealer would not resolve their hand.

Usually the casino caps the number of splits to 3 (4 total hands) but some places do allow infinite re-splitting.

This post brings up a very interesting issue (at least it's very interesting to me). It's been a few years since I last played BJ in a casino and I couldn't remember when players split their hands (multiple times if allowed) do the players attend to each hand as it is split? Or do they do all the splits at one time and then later attend to each split-hand - one at a time. Your post seems to suggest it's done the latter way.

But, I've been trying to decide if it really makes any difference for the purposes of the simulation. Given that the cards are dealt in a random order, it seems to me there is a very strong case that can be made for it not making any difference which way it's done. But, then, many people will claim the simulation should do things in exactly the same order as they are done in a casino. I would love to know if anyone can provide an answer to this question and explain why it is important.

It certainly seemed easier to me to write the simulation with all the splits being made at one time and then each split-hand is "processed" (meaning one hand is hit or surrendered or doubled afterwards).

**Norm** · 04-03-2017, 07:20 AM

1. It matters as the count changes as you play.
2. It can also matter if the dealer runs out of cards.

Basically, everything in blackjack affects everything else.

**ZenMaster_Flash** · 04-03-2017, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by skyler62

"do the players attend to each hand as it is split?"

y e s

**Skyler62** · 04-03-2017, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Freightman

Your goal above will subject you to an infinite life of coding. Just keep in mind the old 80-20 rule. Adjusted for your purpose, this means that 80% of the sims will come from 20% of the coding. Beyond that, its diminIshing returns, and you have to decide where to cut the line.

You are right on the money. I would be very surprised if you have never written a simulation yourself. I would have no idea how someone who hasn't tried to write a sim would ever know that. Unless, of course, you are some kind of genius. Since I don't know you, I certainly won't rule that out.

All kidding aside, that is a very astute observation and highly accurate too.