Trying to make sense of the strategy tables for Surrender (Late Surrender)

[Gronbog]

I would guess that since he was adding a separate column for H17, he just filled in the complete strategy. S17 vs H17 only affects a few decisions and this isn't one of them.

[Skyler62]

Hello RS,

Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I understand your point about the difference between surrendering for 15 and 16. I understand the player surrenders when holding 15 and the dealer shows an Ace and the casino rules state that the dealer always hits a Soft 17. The player does not surrender when the dealer shows an Ace if the casino rules state the dealer does not always hit a Soft 17.

I understand that when the player holds either a 15 or 17, the same conditions apply in exactly the same way. The two hands (15 and 17) are handled in exactly the same way.

But, when the player holds 16, I believe the chart indicates the player always surrenders when the dealer shows an Ace. It doesn't matter what the casino rules are regarding the dealer hitting or standing on a Soft 17.

Perhaps I should have reworded my post to say my problem with this chart is that it seems to be a confusing way to present this information. I'm fairly certain this chart could have been re-organized to avoid showing info that appears to me to be somewhat confusing. Why show the player should surrender if the rule is that the dealer stands on Soft 17 and, as well, if the rule is that the dealer hits Soft 17. Why not just say the player should surrender - period?

If I do understand the meaning of this chart, when the player holds 16, they should surrender - period. It makes no difference what the casino rules are.

My complaint is just that the way this chart is organized makes it kind of difficult to understand. I spent several minutes trying to understand why the author would tell us that the player should surrender both when:

1) dealer always Hits Soft 17 and
2) dealer never Hits Soft 17

The above two statements just reduce to the following: The player should always surrender when holding 16 and the dealer shows an Ace.

There is just no need to cloud the issue by discussing the rule about dealer hitting Soft 17.

I understand that the chart is organized that way because it has to handle other conditions - such as the player holding other values and the difference between the strategy for a 1-deck game, 2-deck game, 3-deck game etc.
This single chart is used to show what happens with 15 and 17 as well as 16 and also to show what to do when the shoe contains any other number of decks.

For novice players, I believe this chart could easily be somewhat confusing. That is the point I wanted to make. Pls excuse me if I made a mountain out of a molehill.

I admit it's a minor complaint and I just wanted to express the opinion that there are many different charts that deal with Surrender and the two I mentioned in my original post are plenty confusing because they convey contradictory information. I'm sorry if I clouded the issue. But I'm sure there must be a simpler way to organize this chart in such a way that would be more straightforward.

[Three]

Can anyone please help me makes sense of this? I must not be understanding something here. Or is one of these books just wrong? Or maybe both of them?

To understand this you need to know how BJ evolved. Early in BJ the dealers peeked for BJ by lifting every face or ace to visually inspect the hole card. Sharp players learned that you could do quite well playing warps. The face and ace would be warped one way from constant peeking and the other cards would be warped the other way. It was like partial information hole carding. After enough play with the same deck of cards you knew whether of not the dealer had either an A or T in the hole by reading the warp of the hole card. The casinos caught on and stopped peeking for BJ. There was a time when they didn't have peeking devices yet and didn't peek for BJ. During this time they had to decide what to do with surrenders doubles and splits. Some places decided not to let you surrender against an ace. There were various ways of handling splits and doubles that are still seen today in games where the dealer doesn't peek. This window of not peeking didn't last long before peaking devices were invented. The players didn't like no-peek BJ as much as peek and it slowed the game down so it cost the casinos a lot of money despite playing with a slightly larger HE. Later books were written after the dealer peeked using a device so they presented things differently.

[Skyler62]

Hello Tthree,

I would like to send you a message. But I'd prefer to send it to you privately. Would you object to posting some email address where I could reach you?

If you prefer, I would be happy to post one of my "disposable" email addresses so that you could send me an Email address privately.

[Three]

I am not going to post an Email. You can PM me your Email or contact me through a common friend.

[Skyler62]

I have no idea how to PM you. To the best of my knowledge, sending you a PM is just not possible for me - at least not by using any facility on this forum.

Here is one Email address you may use to contact me.


[email protected]


I hope this will work out OK.