Ramping With The Count

[Baberuth]

Whether you use an advanced count or HiLo, ramping at all can be a risk. This depends on the session surroundings, but how often do we get a free ride to ramp with the count without attracting too much attention? Reading posts and through my experience ramping under the form of parlaying, chasing etc. can be tough enough. So my question is how many really ramp with the count versus just finding ways to get more dough out there when the count is a strong plus? If you are being watched even casually by the pit or off and on by him/her, does the counting system you use mean as much as the way you use your cover to get the money out there in plus counts?

[KJ]

See, to me this is where that previous discussion on unit, comes in to play. Lets take a $25-$400 spread. Those that consider the $25 wager as the unit, might start spreading something along the lines of $25-$50-$100-$150-
$200-$250-$300-$350-$400. Way too uniform and too many jumps, makes it easy to see what you are doing. Those that double up for cover, skip some of the increments, maybe something like $25-$50-$100-$200-$300-$400. Still too many jumps for my liking. Going back to our recent discussion about unit size, I would also argue that this player's unit was $100, not the $25 wager that he begins with, but that's another discussion.

I use the double up approach, with the exception of the first jump which is bigger. This little bigger first jump allows me to ramp up quicker, doubling up, with fewer jumps. Something along the lines of $25-$75-$150-$300-$400 (or higher, depending on max bet). With this ramp which is one of a number that I use, I consider $150 to be my unit. This is the amount that I want to play at my first half percent advantage and each half percent advantage going forward until I have hit max bet, so this allows me to ramp pretty close to, not the count, but my advantage, in half percent increments.

The $75 wager is the key to this spread. It is simply a median point, getting from small waiting bet ($25) to my unit wager ($150), without doing so in one massive jump. The $75 amount is the only one that is not double, so you may have to go to chips in front of you, to place the wager rather than double up a win, but it is a small enough amount that you can get away with that, plus the amount is just so, that it keeps you under checks play call, which draws extra attention. This allows me to avoid a 'checks play' call until I have my unit wager out, am playing at at least a half percent advantage and most likely will be exiting at the shuffle.

[TheHypnoToad]

I use the double up approach

Just to clarify, does this mean that you only increase your bets with a win or that you just limit the increase in a bet to your current bet (but would increase even after a loss or push)? I assume the former...what about when you want to decrease?

As I understand it, this approach gives up quite a lot of SCORE - do you know how much it is, say, for some average 6D game (including your initial jump to 75)? How much does the initial jump save you? Obviously you've thought about it and consider it worthwhile, more so than other approaches.

I don't personally use any bet ramping, I bet my true edge as accurately as I can calculate it (with a minimum bet that makes it worthwhile and that I can get away with etc.). I thought about using a "double up" approach but, after some consideration, thought it was better to play a stronger game for less time and move around more. Obviously this is contingent upon a certain density of decent games so that you can put down enough total playing time. Interested to hear your thoughts...

Totally agree about betting units - this is a much more sensible scale than e.g. minimums, especially in light of some kind of progression cover.

Hypno.

[Zach Black]

If the count justifies it, I will use the proceeds from a winning blackjack or a double down to increase my bet - like KJ's step from 25 to 75. This seems like a natural time to get more money on the table and looks like a progression that ploppies sometime use.

[TheHypnoToad]

...and looks like a progression that ploppies sometime use.

But only some of the time - i.e. when there's a +ve count. How much better does it look to the pit if you sometimes use a progression (about 1/3 of the time) and mostly not? Or do you mimic some kind of "small progression" with your waiting bets? What about in-between shoes?

Interested to know if anyone has enough data to meaningfully compare longevity using an "exact edge" and a "doubling up"? If you've been backed off many times just putting out the correct bet (and playing short sessions) but lasted significantly longer using a "double up" method then that would be reasonably compelling provided the store were similar enough to be a good comparison. If there's convincing enough evidence, I might consider using an approach like this (again)...

One cover play I have anecdotally found useful (i.e. seems to be effective) is putting out large bets at the beginning of the net shoe if I finish with a good count. This is much cheaper than only changing your bets only with wins/losses.

Also, another question to put out there - do you systematically play these progression covers or only e.g. if someone appears to be watching you (either you can see them or there's suddenly no one in the pit)?

Thanks.

[KJ]

Just to clarify, does this mean that you only increase your bets with a win or that you just limit the increase in a bet to your current bet (but would increase even after a loss or push)? I assume the former...what about when you want to decrease?

I have already been a little too specific in this thread, so I am going to just speak in a little more general terms. Doubling up on a win is very natural and easiest of all situations. You just have to rearrange the chips already in your circle without going for more chips. But in the case of a loss, you have to go for more chips anyway, so I don't think it is way out of line to up your bet at that time. You just have to grab a few more chips. 'Regular' players often bet more after a loss, chasing, so it's not super out of the ordinary, unless you make that massive jump I spoke about earlier, like jumping $25 to $150 or $75 to $300. I think that will get you noticed. That's why I stick to double up amounts, win or lose.

[Zach Black]

From my limited experince, I believe a bet ramp in real life is more an art than an exact science used in a sim. With an exact edge ramp there are times when it's correct to go from a waiting wager to a max bet in one hand. I use the doubling up as my maximum rate of change unless I get a blackjack or double down on the previous hand.

Playing single deck games with an exact edge ramp can quicky result in a preferential shuffle. Doubling up is tolerated.

With double deck games betting an exact edge ramp for more than a short session will likely result in backoff. I use the doubling up ramp if I want to play more than an hour because of distance between casinos or if I want to return in the next 6 months.

Deeply dealt six deck games are alot like double deck games and the count can jump around alot a the end. I generally don't worry about betting to the exact edge on 6D games and will save the 1/2 unit to 5 unit jump when I'm ready to find the door.

I will place a mid size bet off the top of single and double decks for cover, but on shoe's I'm done for awhile after exposing my max bet.

[RS]

I wonder how big of a difference there is in EV & ROR if you are always randomly changing your high bets in high counts and low bets in low counts. If the player has the edge, perhaps random between $100-300, and while the house has the edge, random between $25-75. Anyone follow?

[ThatLuckyDog]

See, to me this is where that previous discussion on unit, comes in to play. Lets take a $25-$400 spread. Those that consider the $25 wager as the unit, might start spreading something along the lines of $25-$50-$100-$150-
$200-$250-$300-$350-$400. Way too uniform and too many jumps, makes it easy to see what you are doing. Those that double up for cover, skip some of the increments, maybe something like $25-$50-$100-$200-$300-$400. Still too many jumps for my liking. Going back to our recent discussion about unit size, I would also argue that this player's unit was $100, not the $25 wager that he begins with, but that's another discussion.

I use the double up approach, with the exception of the first jump which is bigger. This little bigger first jump allows me to ramp up quicker, doubling up, with fewer jumps. Something along the lines of $25-$75-$150-$300-$400 (or higher, depending on max bet). With this ramp which is one of a number that I use, I consider $150 to be my unit. This is the amount that I want to play at my first half percent advantage and each half percent advantage going forward until I have hit max bet, so this allows me to ramp pretty close to, not the count, but my advantage, in half percent increments.

The $75 wager is the key to this spread. It is simply a median point, getting from small waiting bet ($25) to my unit wager ($150), without doing so in one massive jump. The $75 amount is the only one that is not double, so you may have to go to chips in front of you, to place the wager rather than double up a win, but it is a small enough amount that you can get away with that, plus the amount is just so, that it keeps you under checks play call, which draws extra attention. This allows me to avoid a 'checks play' call until I have my unit wager out, am playing at at least a half percent advantage and most likely will be exiting at the shuffle.

This is very interesting. I have been using this recently and I find it to feel much more natural. I oftentimes line up my ramp when doubling with the info I am extracting from CVCX. I try to keep my betting structure somewhat close to being in line with my advantage. It is interesting to read your approach to this. Just curious, have you always played like this or is this an evolution in your playing style?

[ThatLuckyDog]

I wonder how big of a difference there is in EV & ROR if you are always randomly changing your high bets in high counts and low bets in low counts. If the player has the edge, perhaps random between $100-300, and while the house has the edge, random between $25-75. Anyone follow?

I was rereading Blackjack Autumn the other day and this is what he discussess doing. It would seem like it could increase the volatility quite a bit due to the more random nature of the betting. I have wanted to run a sim on it, but I have not been able to figure out how to accurately figure out how to sim it.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.

[zengrifter]

User is banned, content deleted.

[Zach Black]

I wonder how big of a difference there is in EV & ROR if you are always randomly changing your high bets in high counts and low bets in low counts. If the player has the edge, perhaps random between $100-300, and while the house has the edge, random between $25-75. Anyone follow?

There was a good post on the GC forum "Multi-portfolio Betting System" that described a system for single deck games that accomplishes this by grouping first through sixth hands and assigning a range of bets to be made for each hand. I believe this could be done on other games.